[Quiet Man Cometh]

I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't, or doesn't appear to be, any straight definition of gender or sex that every discipline uses. Tiva, you are discussing the approach you take in Anthropology, but that doesn't mean that each other science or discipline will take it the same way, and that's part of existing debates on the nature of gender/sex/etc.

I imagine each discipline's approach to gender and sex is affected by how much it "cares" about it. I studied a fair amount of sociology in my first two years on college, among a general mixture of social sciences in all four years). In my classes, it was pointed out that gender and sex are two different things. Sex referred to an individual's biological assignment, which could be either male, female, or indeterminate. Gender referred to the habits that were categorized as either masculine or feminine, that were typically associated with each sex. Gender was viewed as largely social, while sex was biological. Since sociology cares a whole lot about perceptions of things in a society, that separation makes sense.

The same thing was done in my Women's Studies courses. Part of the issue with "gender inequality" was that the personal traits seen as masculine were considered more valuable than those perceived as feminine, and this was an excuse for the elevation of men because masculine traits are more predominant in males. This is not the only explanation for inequality of course, but it's one, and one I think we can still see in that it's largely acceptable for a woman to act in a masculine fashion, while it's not as acceptable for a man to act feminine (this is my personal observation here).

I admit, I find this thread a little confusing at times because, being accustomed to gender and sex being two different things, but knowing that people often use "gender" to refer to biological sex, I'm not always sure what exactly people are talking about.

I know that there are people who argue against defining sex by the presence of a Y chromosome and male parts, because they view that as a definition made by a society that focuses on men (such a person might point out the use of the word "Man" or "Mankind" to refer to humanity as another example). I'm not saying this to say that your definition is wrong, just that there is more than one approach to sex and gender, even in the academic world, and I think you'd be hard pressed to point at any particular approach and say 'this is how it works.'

[Agent Night]

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.
My avi's gender tends to switch back and forth according to how my whims and how I'm feeling that day, which mirror's my idea of my own gender rather well
2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
I have this issue in online games too, where I tend to refer to the person I'm talking to by the gender of their avatar or character until I am corrected-I guess I'm still too visual when it comes to gender

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
I don't think it's important to know the gender of the person you are talking to-it is the internet after all XD

[Espy]

Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh

I admit, I find this thread a little confusing at times because, being accustomed to gender and sex being two different things, but knowing that people often use "gender" to refer to biological sex, I'm not always sure what exactly people are talking about.

In recent years, "Hey, are you a guy or a girl?" has become such a difficult question to answer, haha, ha...

[Coda]

Originally Posted by Espy

In recent years, "Hey, are you a guy or a girl?" has become such a difficult question to answer, haha, ha...

There was a time in my past where my answer to that question was "no". :P (And another time where the answer was "yes".)

[Xurxo]

Answering "no" or "yes" does seem the best way to do it. I like it. I'm going to take that from now on.

Not that anyone asks me IRL, anymore.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

I remember reading a cute little story in college. Can't remember what it was called, something like "Baby X" (X being the name I can't remember) and it was a about a couple that raised their kid with the sex a secret. They dressed the kid in gender neutral colours and gender neutral clothing (overalls so people couldn't tell gender by which way the buttons went on a shirt) and the kid did both masculine and feminine things, it had a gender neutral name, and eventually in school other kids began doing things that their "genders" weren't supposed to do, like the sporty boy vacuuming floors and the girly girl mowing the lawn. Parents started throwing a fuss until they demanded the kid's sex be determined. We never did get the answer to that, but the point was that the kid knew perfectly well what it was, and that everyone else would know when it actually mattered, the implication being that someone's sex doesn't matter until reproduction comes into things.

Pretty sure it's fiction, but. I liked the story. The parents were all frustrated but the children couldn't care less. My mother raised me somewhat the same way. We wore boys' clothes sometimes when she thought the girls' clothes looked stupid. She got us toy trucks and things as kids. My sister took faster to the "boys' toy section" than I did, but it didn't matter to her that I still liked My Little Pony and my sister was all over the toy insects and snakes. My dad taught my sister and I to shoot and fish. It never occurred to me until college really that those might not have been considered typical "girl" activities.

[Espy]

Hm...I think the toys that littered the ground when I was a kid would probably be LEGOs, K'nex, those magnetic building set things, cardstock airplane sets, plastic ones, and batteries and wires. Now, in college, my roommate's side of the room is littered with her clothes, shoes, and drawings (architecture major) while mine (I'm a mechanical engineering major) is covered in books, various bottles (hence her offhand joke that I seem to be developing a "drinking problem"), and Nerf weapons.

[littl3chocobo]

i have no pref though i usually have female avis until i can get a good ammount of items since males are usually neglected on most sites but i guess it does but only because i switch often

no since a person's gender is /not/ defined by avatars unless the person in question is duller than dirt

not really, sorry

[Kaunisenkeli]

Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh

I remember reading a cute little story in college. Can't remember what it was called, something like "Baby X" (X being the name I can't remember) and it was a about a couple that raised their kid with the sex a secret. They dressed the kid in gender neutral colours and gender neutral clothing (overalls so people couldn't tell gender by which way the buttons went on a shirt) and the kid did both masculine and feminine things, it had a gender neutral name, and eventually in school other kids began doing things that their "genders" weren't supposed to do, like the sporty boy vacuuming floors and the girly girl mowing the lawn. Parents started throwing a fuss until they demanded the kid's sex be determined. We never did get the answer to that, but the point was that the kid knew perfectly well what it was, and that everyone else would know when it actually mattered, the implication being that someone's sex doesn't matter until reproduction comes into things.

Pretty sure it's fiction, but. I liked the story. The parents were all frustrated but the children couldn't care less. My mother raised me somewhat the same way. We wore boys' clothes sometimes when she thought the girls' clothes looked stupid. She got us toy trucks and things as kids. My sister took faster to the "boys' toy section" than I did, but it didn't matter to her that I still liked My Little Pony and my sister was all over the toy insects and snakes. My dad taught my sister and I to shoot and fish. It never occurred to me until college really that those might not have been considered typical "girl" activities.

I'm not sure about your story, but I've heard of at least some parents who raise their child without gender until the child can speak for itself.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...170824245.html
http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-...-gender-secret
Two articles on a case from the US.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ild-Sasha.html
And one from the UK.

It's an interesting idea, and certainly changes a problem the medical community had with intersexed children from quite a while. It used to be common practice when a child was born intersexed for them to be assigned at birth on the basis of which genitalia seemed dominant, and the parents tried to raise them from there in the "box" the doctors had slotted the child into (sometimes with disastrous results).

In developmental psychology, there is a case that taught the world (although not immediately because of one doctor's huge problem with ethics and actually listening to the evidence, but that comes later) that gender isn't something that comes in with the child's upbringing (re: nature vs. nurture debate). This was the now infamous Twins Case. I believe the story of David (born Bruce, raised as Brenda until puberty) Reimer speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhbVFjIaN0
http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ender_gap.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[Quiet Man Cometh]

I know of David's story. It's tragic. I told it to my dad once and he didn't believe anything like that could have happened until it came on TV in a Nova special.

The story I mentioned was more about letting the child act as it wanted to without fussing over it's sexual role. David's story really shows how badly things can go when people try to force a gender/sex onto someone.

I've never thought about that story in relation to someone's perception of their own sex but it's occurring to me now. David was unhappy as "Brenda" and it says a lot that he chose later to live as a male despite how he was raised. Do we assume that the choice was related to biology when other people also feel that they aren't living as the right sex when they don't happen to have the matching parts?

Not thinking of an answer for that, just rolling the notion around in my head.

[Kaunisenkeli]

It is tragic. When the prof in my Psychology of Gender class this past summer showed the videos about David Reimer in class, there wasn't a dry eye in the room by the end. That put me at ease enough to speak out a week later about my experiences as a transsexual (something I did again in my biology class this semester... I think that started something).

Yeah, I started by editing in the links about children being raised without gender until they can tell people who they are. I think it's neat that there are parents who really want to know their kids instead of following the societal pressure to assign them into boxes from the very start. My editing just got out of control and the story of David Reimer just found its way in.

I would say, from my own perspective, that I never had a choice about transitioning physically from male to female. If I had any choice at all, it was "Do I try to live? Or do I keep trying to die?". There was never a choice about who I was and am. Pain was my life before transition. I was trying to be someone I knew I wasn't, and that caused me so many problems. Since starting to transition I've found myself able to focus on classes for the first time in my life (and my GPA is up quite a bit as a result), I quit drinking (I quit harder drugs long before, but I tried many of them once upon a time), and I actually have a positive outlook on life for the first time ever (in high school I was certain that I would be dead before 30, but this coming February I'll be turning 32).

As far as biology goes, though, there is something interesting going on prior to birth. An area of the brain thought to deal with gender identity (often referred to simply as gender) develops a full month before a fetus' genitalia differentiate. What happens in this month to cause a difference between gender identity and physical sex? We don't really know yet. This is the best hypothesis available right now concerning transsexualism.

[FeeFee_Teh_Kitty]

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

I prefer female and yes it does match my real life gender. I love cutesy outfits online and real life. <3

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

I prefer to address people neutrally unless a person makes it clear they're a boy or a girl. I, myself have both male and female avatars on Trisphee and Gaia because I love to dress things up. I also know a lot of boys who have girl avatars because girls tend to have more clothing options. :3

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I really don't care to much about people's gender because I just wanna hang out with nice people. But after a while once you get kinda close to a person and talk outside of here on like a messenger or facebook you eventually learn their gender. :3

[Keisume_Katori]

Originally Posted by FeeFee_Teh_Kitty

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

I prefer female and yes it does match my real life gender. I love cutesy outfits online and real life. <3

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

I prefer to address people neutrally unless a person makes it clear they're a boy or a girl. I, myself have both male and female avatars on Trisphee and Gaia because I love to dress things up. I also know a lot of boys who have girl avatars because girls tend to have more clothing options. :3

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I really don't care to much about people's gender because I just wanna hang out with nice people. But after a while once you get kinda close to a person and talk outside of here on like a messenger or facebook you eventually learn their gender. :3

I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I posted with my mule. So so sorry. </3

[Gaius]

Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh

I've never thought about that story in relation to someone's perception of their own sex but it's occurring to me now. David was unhappy as "Brenda" and it says a lot that he chose later to live as a male despite how he was raised. Do we assume that the choice was related to biology when other people also feel that they aren't living as the right sex when they don't happen to have the matching parts?

Not thinking of an answer for that, just rolling the notion around in my head.

That's what I was thinking the whole time. I don't think this story is anymore tragic than one of a little girl who is forced to act feminine and grows up unhappy. I don't think David's parents are any worse for making him grow up acting like a girl than many other parents who make their children grow up acting like their biological sex. I admire the parents who are trying to give their children a choice, even if in our society it always feels like the choice is limited to one or the other. ._.

[Sadrain]

I usually make female avatars, because I am a girl, I have my own specific style, both in real life and on avatar sites, and it has certain womanly traits, but every now and then, I make a male avatar, for the heck of it. I do not have problem with it, since in role play, I play male characters.

As for perception of other people... It really depends, some I associate with their avatar gender, some not, some I can't tell. I don't know why it is so, but it is. Maybe I take it from writing style or something else. It has led me astray few times, but usually is rather accurate (if I am in doubt, then it's usually someone who isn't distinctively his or hers gender).

But in general, I really don't care about the gender of my conversation partner. Or appearance. If I feel well and comfortable talking, then it doesn't matter, really. I have had a friend whom I sort of knew gender, although I had my reasons to doubt, but I never asked, because s/he was still one of my best friends and gender couldn't matter less.

[Kaunisenkeli]

Originally Posted by Gaius

That's what I was thinking the whole time. I don't think this story is anymore tragic than one of a little girl who is forced to act feminine and grows up unhappy. I don't think David's parents are any worse for making him grow up acting like a girl than many other parents who make their children grow up acting like their biological sex. I admire the parents who are trying to give their children a choice, even if in our society it always feels like the choice is limited to one or the other. ._.

Yeah, I agree that children shouldn't be forced to act a particular way. Let children explore.

As for David's parents, I don't put any blame on them, really. They were understandably distraught, and they got caught between the family's situation and the unethical Dr. John Money. Sure, they could have listened to their child instead, but they thought of Dr. Money as a person of authority. He was able to calm their fears while ignoring the evidence himself.