[Quiet Man Cometh]

New post because I'd rather not tackle too many topics or ideas in one go. Makes things look plugged, and the last post was fairly big.

Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol

@Quiet, that's very sound and sensible (as your points usually are), the only thing I'd raise in counter to it is that in the beginning of the Silm., before Morgoth steals the Silmmarils and Ungoliant kills the Trees of Light, the elves are all happy and enjoying making beautiful things like you mentioned above, and they still don't act like that.

Not sure entirely what your talking about here, Suzerain. What is it in particular that the elves (pre morgoth or post, not sure) aren't really doing?

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Oh, I mean that they're in a similar situation in the beginning of the Silm. (better, actually, as they've at this point never known war or even invented weapons) but they aren't singing tra-la-la and acting all silly like the elves in The Hobbit do.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Ah. One could make the argument that by comparison, the knowledge of sorrow can increase appreciation of happiness, thus more tra-la-la, but that's getting into philosophical territory.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Heh, indeed. And, also, it is possible they were like that given the... distant way that the Silmarillion is written. Tra-la-la-ing isn't something the narrator of that book is like to focus on.

One can imagine the elves awakening for the first time under the stars were probably pretty carefree. It's just, the Silm. has such an aura of despondency and lofty stoicism permeating the writing, it's hard to imagine that happening when you read it.

[Nanka]

It's kind of sad that he is so smug about a book and story that he didn't even write himself. Way to cash in on fame.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Come to think of it, I don't think he's ever published any original works of his own. At least, if he has, I've never heard of them. He seems content to just re-use his father's work, though in his defense, he did have to do a lot of editing, since many of these stories were only in notes and fragments the Tolkien left behind.

I don't want to make it sound like he hasn't put a lot of work into the books that have gotten published, just that the core ideas aren't his. (We'll never know how much of the writing he did to fill in the gaps that J. R. R. left behind.)

[Serra Britt]

I wonder if I still have these books. It's been well over 15 years since I read the Hobbit and the Trilogy and most of what you are discussing is floating over my head ><

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Well, I reference the Silmarillion and the Book of Lost Tales a lot, so don't feel too bad. I've never actually read the rest of the History of Middle-Earth series, so I'm not, actually, the world's biggest Tolkien nerd, much to your surprise, I'm sure. :p

I haven't even read all the man's letters...

[Serra Britt]

I think that probably, like me, you retain odd information, enough to make it sound like you're a Tolkien nerd even though it just happens to be stuff you remember. I myself remeber a LOT of odd things from various games/books.

Oh let me not derail the thread >>

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Meh, no worries. It's a really broad thread topic. :p

And until someone comes along to oust me, I *am* the biggest Tolkien nerd here at the moment. :p

[Quiet Man Cometh]

I can see my copies of the Hobbit and the Silmarillion on my shelf. I read a little in the Silmarillion, enough to get me through a laundromat in Ireland when it was pissing rain outside and I was waiting for my room to open up. Not the best of reading atmospheres. I was sitting cross-legged on top of a counter that was probably for folding clothes with no socks and no bra and wearing damp everything else.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

[pseudo-psychologist] Sounds like negative association bias to me. :P No wonder you won't read it. [/pseudo-psychologist].

[Serra Britt]

That's quite an image, Quiet. I can see why you wouldn't want to read in that condition though ><

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Oh it's not so much that I don't want to read it, but I have doubts because I've got a bunch of other novels on the go as well, and some of them happen to pique my interest more at the time. I'm working on finishing some of them. Since I only make it as far as the introduction in The Silmarillion, (Morgoth and his dicordant note in the choir)I set it aside for now.

And the hostel was made of up of vacant college dorms so I had my own room, a big bed, and shower all to mayself, so it worked out well. :)

[Suzerain of Sheol]

I'm reminded of a VS. debate involving Gandalf I read recently (can't remember who he was matched against) and someone made the following argument in Gandalf's favor:

1. Tolkien confirmed that Eru Iluvatar is the Christian God.
2. According to Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica, angels exist outside of Time.
3. Gandalf, as a Maiar, is analogous to an angel.
4. Gandalf can time stop at will.
5. Gandalf wins.

On the second thought... I'm probably the only person in the world who finds that amusing. Nevermind.

[Serra Britt]

I'm just not connecting the first point to the rest of the argument, but that's probably because I don't know how Mairs relate to Eru Iluvatar.