[Ginger]

It's possible. Grow your own food, save money to build your own house for cheap using recycled wood and materials, learn trade skills, educate yourself on the basics of survival. You won't have to work a 9-5 job just to have your entire income go towards rent/mortgage and bills. Imagine getting out of debt and being able to afford things you've wanted for a long time, and to have some fun!

Living a self-sustaining lifestyle is the beginning of something big. I feel like it's important for us to look out for ourselves, even if it's just small things we do. Recycling your bottles, cans, and old newspapers would be a great start if you don't already recycle.

For me personally, I don't need a mansion or fancy car to be happy with life. I would be happy living a simple life in a small loft cabin (as long as I can still have access to Trisphee :P)

Things to talk about:
- Opinions about homesteading
- Urban Survivalism
- Rural Survivalism
- Homesteading
- Small Housing
- Best yard sale/thrift store finds
- Hoarding and how the population has gotten out of hand with it
- Space Saving
- Reduced Consumption
- Water harvesting
- Alternative forms of energy
- Materials people often throw out without thinking twice and things the materials can be used for
- How much bills suck
- Prices on everyday goods today compared to what they used to be
- Recyclable Items

Please do not flame this thread. It is here for informative purposes. In no way do I think the world is ending, and I'm not a nutcase. I'm just interested in a simple, peaceful lifestyle with as little stress as possible.

[Coda]

I'm going to mention this and then not trigger a flame war about it.

A self-sustaining lifestyle sounds nice at first, but you have to realize that some of the ideas suggested are very much opposite of the idea of a simple, stress-free life. Growing your own food -- or at least, growing enough to actually sustain yourself -- is a lot of work compared to just buying groceries, for example.

It's impossible to get out of debt if you're not working a profitable job. The modern world doesn't make it possible to earn enough income off of this kind of lifestyle to repay past debts, and even if you could, this isn't "carefree" by any stretch. This lifestyle might help you AVOID debt, but it won't repair past debt.

It sounds romantic to live like generations past, but imagine what you have to give up in order to make it happen. Rather, try applying some of the IDEAS behind the "self-sustaining lifestyle" movement to a more realistic lifestyle: buy cheaper equivalents of things you need, get things that go farther for less money, reuse things, recycle things, conserve resources. These are all good ideas, but carrying it to extremes will leave one unhappier than just living 'normally'.

[Tiva]

Have you read no impact man? It is a good novel about trying to sustain your self in a big city and the problems with it... like washing clothes.

[Gaius]

That is a lovely idea indeed. I agree with you absolutely that I would be completely happy living a simple lifestyle like this. I hate frivolity and greatly oppose needless consumerism. I don't think I have the work ethic to fully sustain myself, but when I own a home someday, I plan to begin a vegetable garden which will eventually supply me with all the vegetables I will need. And since vegetables are at least half of my diet, with the other half mostly being rice, bread, and coffee, this will significantly reduce the amount of money I spend on food.

More than just sustain myself, I want to help the entire world as a whole be able to sustain itself. The amount of resources we waste is depressing.

[Coda]

How much does it cost to buy the tools and supplies necessary to maintain a garden? How much does it cost to purchase the seeds and the fertilizer and to manage pest control? How much money are you spending on the land you're growing the garden on? And time is money: How many hours per week do you need to put in to maintain that garden that you could just as easily spend doing something more enjoyable?

Don't get me wrong, fresh, home-grown vegetables are a good thing, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it's an "easier" or "cheaper" lifestyle -- it only makes sense if tending to the garden is something you enjoy doing as a hobby, and if you already have the land on which to grow it.

[Ginger]

It is an easier lifestyle in the sense that if your job were to go under, you would have the ability to still feed your family. Can't pay the power bill? Can't afford food? "Can't" won't be in the definition of jobless. It isn't hard to find the materials you need for your garden, or your own cabin even. You can re-purpose seeds you get from vegetables at the store, and once they're grown you can trade them for different seeds. If you have a rabbit you can easily use its waste as fertilizer. Land isn't too much of an issue if you use the space you have efficiently. A person can be fully-sustainable on 1/4 acre of land, depending on how they go about it. There is aquaponics, traditional gardening, and you can have chickens that produce eggs and a goat or cow that produces milk. To feed them you can just fence your property and have them be land grazers, and ask a few people if you can have their grass-clippings from mowing their lawns. I see free stuff and things that are thrown away every day that can be put to good use, like wood pallets, old tires, dirt, rocks, wood that can be used for firewood or making furniture to trade/sell, sand, home-improvement things, and the list goes on. People have made entire houses with these things, and the only things they had to pay for in the building process was plumbing, electric, and well installation.

You're right that it definitely does take a lot of time and hard work, but in my opinion it pays off. It might be pricy starting out but if you use free, recycled materials it can dramatically reduce the cost. In the long run I would have to say that it is cheaper. It all depends on what the person is comfortable with going and how far they want to take it.

Many areas prohibit self-sustaining lifestyles because it takes away from the government, but look at our debt and how much we owe. If we don't look out for ourselves who will?

[Coda]

Areas prohibit them because livestock within city limits are a public nuisance and a potential health hazard, not because it takes away from the government. Cows stink and pollute; chickens make a lot of noise. Cows also have a HUGE carbon footprint; they eat a LOT and produce methane due to the cellulose-reducing bacteria they need to digest grasses.

Remember that every hour you spend on your self-sustaining lifestyle is an hour not spent doing something else. If you need that hour working a paying job in order to avoid going broke in the first place, which are you better off doing? Having food when you go broke, or not go broke at all?

I feel the need to repeatedly reiterate that I'm NOT against the positive things that can come of this, but it's very important to treat it rationally and not romanticize the idea, because if you actually try it you'll quickly discover it's NOT romantic at all. It's a lot of hard work that results in a lifestyle with a lot less free time and relaxation, and nowhere near the kind of financial freedom people tend to think it grants. This is important: time is money. What good is having a "cheaper" lifestyle if you can't actually enjoy it?

But being frugal, reusing things, getting free stuff, eating more vegetables and less meat, these are all good things, and everyone can benefit from it.

[littl3chocobo]

so it is impossible for farmers to make enough crop to sustain themselves anymore, they have to get money from the government because seed and land and such are so expensive

you also have to have licenses to keep most animals and to use land. take into account as well that seeds harvested do not propagate unless you get them from an illegal source since virtually all seeds sold in stores at all levels produce sterile plants(it is why corn if argued over so much) and should the harvest go bad like most did this year in america then you are fucked because all of that food and money is wasted and you cannot simply start over, there are also pests and pollutants to worry about as well as the hard reality that most people ignore, you must kill what you grow be it tomatoes or fluffy the bunny, and here is a fun fact udders are located under the butt, cow feces in milk is virtually unavoidable which is part of why it is illegal in most states to consume and sell raw milk

[Ginger]

Coda - City regulations and safety hazards are a reason why those who choose to live these lifestyles live/want to live in rural areas, and they choose to be in the peace of nature where noise and pollution are reduced. This lifestyle isn't for everyone. It is the peace of mind concept. It is simple in the way of not having to work two jobs just to feed and house your family. I do understand where you are coming from, but there are ways to reduce the time spent maintaining your food supply. There are drip irrigation systems, and hydroponics like I have mentioned earlier. You also don't have to give up a full time job. Instead of all of your money going to bills, mortgage payments, and food, said money could be used to get out of debt, use for retirement, take a vacation, buy a new car with cash, whatever else there is to do with 20k extra per year. It generally won't be just one person tending to the entire homestead, unless the person is a lone wolf. It still depends on every person's individual comfort level on how far they are willing to go.

Chocobo - There will always be trial and error in the world of gardening. It takes learning and improvising to get the most out of crops. The way I see it, our crappy crops this year provides a good example of the importance to leading a self-sustaining lifestyle in one way or another. It doesn't have to be full-blown grow your own food or starve. You may decide to grow enough food for 2 months, 2 years, or 20 years. One doesn't absolutely have to exclude purchasing things from stores. Utilizing resources, recycling, and having a personal garden might be the comfort level of most people. There are more natural, cheaper ways to pest control. Pesticides aren't on my list of things to ingest into my body. It hardly takes money to grow and maintain your own garden. Collect rainwater to water house plants if you're worried about the water bill. If there's a stream or river near your house put it to use. If you live near a lake stop the car/truck and fill up a few empty milk cartons/100 gallon tank. As for the raw milk thing, it still depends on the comfort level of people. Wash the utters before milking if that is a concern. It's running the extra mile that enables us to walk for the next mile and a half.

Either way if anyone fails to have a good crop there is still the convenience of grocery stores. The basics to human survival include food, shelter, and clothing (well not really that last part, but modern times calls for it). What does money physically do for someone? It buys what we need/want. Would a starving child in Africa take a dollar bill or a piece of pizza?

[littl3chocobo]

ginger is not listening at all, i have read a lot, i worked for two years with a woman who tried to be as self-sustaining as she could in a semi-rural place and i am telling you, what you are proposing is nothing short of scandalous, it reads like an advertisement and most of the things you suggest are either very bad for you or very expensive

sweetie needs to try and live the life a little before preaching how wonderful it is, i have tried a watered down version of it myself and i will not lie, it is a bitch


also, when i say it is illegal to drink milk straight from the cow what i mean is you will actually be arrested fined and if you've given it to children or sold it, jailed

[Ginger]

I've been listening and replying with an open mind Chocobo. I did grow up on a farm and I do realize the workload that comes with it. I won't be having children, or a cow. I was just making suggestions as to what livestock people might prefer to have lol. It's a lifestyle that is attainable through hard work and dedication. If you use your brains and resources you will save time and money. The internet is a vast source of people with knowledge from all walks of life. It is important to use the free information that is literally handed to you. All you have to do is search for the right keywords and bam, DIY projects made from items that would otherwise go into landfill.

[Mal Kapwn]

I've had experience with self-sustaining lifestyles fairly closely. I stayed with a family for a while that led this sort of lifestyle. It was a mother, father and daughter. Around the time the mother was in her late 30s, she decided she was done with city life and she divorced her rich husband and used all of her money to purchase a large piece of land in rural West Virginia. She met a man who was an experienced farmer and married him. They collected sap from the trees on their property and sold maple syrup to help support their lifestyle. They kept chickens, a milk cow to have milk in the house, and a couple horses (they rode horses instead of using vehicles) and they fished their pond and worked their garden. They did a lot of canning and freezing to put back food for winter.
They had electricity, which they paid for by selling off the eggs, syrup and garden food that they didn't need. They bathed every day with well water by filling up the bathtub with hot hot water, and dad would take a bath, then mom, then daughter and then the water would be siphoned out the window and into the garden.
They also collected all of their waste and their animal's waste and used it for fertilizer in the garden.
They bought only organic food with the money, and for the most part only shop at co-ops and farmer's markets or trade with neighbors.
The dad was experienced with construction and could use that skill for money as well. I believe the mother was also a professional dog trainer and made a little side money that way as well.

[Pinkie]

This is what the bf and I want to do. We want to build our own house with recyled goods. He could do all the electrical because thats his job lol and we have friends and family that do frames and drywalling... I love the idea if having a house that really is 100% mine

[Coda]

See, that's sort of the exception that proves the rule.

Look at what you've described.

A woman who has intentionally chosen to completely abandon her lifestyle. She found someone who has already dedicated his life to growing food. She was already independently wealthy and was able to purchase large amounts of land. She moved out of the city.

This wouldn't have worked if she wasn't already rich.

It's definitely not a cure for a 20-something trying to save money and have less worry in their life.

[Mal Kapwn]

Yes, I would have to agree with that.
Now, being a 20-something trying to save money and have less worry in my life (ha), I moved out of my parent's house and into my boss's house. He lives out in the middle of nowhere, we run a small restaurant together, and we mostly live off of our farm and the work we put into it. We have a milk cow, chickens, guineas, a garden, a well, two ponds, six kids, and a boyfriend. The whole family works the "farm" and it. is. hard. There is always work that needs to be done. We've had to get rid of our pigs and all of the other cows to make ends meet, and the restaurant business is tough. We're trying to make it work, and I think it can, but it will take a while.
And all of this is only possible because my boss was wealthy and spent all of his money on this foundation we have now.

[Ashy]

Coda does really valid points, from experience starting up a vegetable garden is quite expensive and another thing you've gotta factor in is animals(feral and domesticated) ruining your garden. We had a dog dig under the fence and eat about $30 worth of corn, and a drunk aboriginal woman fall into all the peas and beans. So in short we were out of pocket about 80-100 which is including the fertilizers and water, and we didn't even use any pesticides which are quite expensive as well which is another thing you have to factor in is loss of stock due to spoilage.

It is a good idea as a small project if you've got the space especially where I live because the soil is perfect for growing things. So if you are wanting to set up like tank water and a garden it's better to do things like carrots and potatoes first as they're something used to thicken meals, don't try and do a whole big garden at first as you do have to trial and error what will actually grow in your climate.

Oh I should add, my mum's been trying to make a herb garden for years and they keep dying for no reason. Yet I yanked some wild basil out of the ground and it lived for like a year >.>