[Potironette]

Teach yourself..things that I want to do. I think at the heart of it, I struggle immensely with that.

How do I explore interests when it feels like I have no interests yet interests in nearly everything at the same time?

[Coda]

That's normal! That's nothing to feel shame about. Being interested in a broad spectrum of things is a sign of a well-rounded individual.

So... try it! Imagine yourself doing one of those things. If you can't imagine it, go find out more about what the career itself is like. Try doing some amateur stuff in the field.

I started computer programming when I was a kid, so I kinda had it easy, but programming is a really broad field, so I still had the same issue in choosing what I wanted to focus on and specialize in. I thought I wanted to do video games for a long time, but then I learned more about what it's like to work in the industry, and I'm a lot happier with that as just a hobby instead of a career. I didn't think I wanted to get stuck doing web development, but I'm really good at it; I ended up finding a job that takes those skills in a completely different direction than what I usually think of when I think "web development." Maybe I'll move on from this someday, but right now it's satisfying.

[Potironette]

It seems that somehow I've become well-rounded after all X'D. Considering how much I dabble then drop things, I suppose it makes sense.

So, seize on one thing then try it? I think I'll need to sift through some things, and ignore some fear of failing before I've even begun ^^

[Coda]

Or try a few things at once. You're young. You can get away with it.

[Raizu]

EDIT: This was in reply to Coda. Not sure how formatting on here works x.x;;

At least where I live in Southern California I can tell you I've seen it many times where someone with any college degree has gotten hired over another person without one. In my experience it's always been the deciding factor in whether or not someone gets a job. No one really cares anymore what you went to college for as long as you have it. Again this might just be in Southern California, but it's very prevalent everywhere I've looked.

As for saving money I really don't know about that. Again this one is most likely restricted to my area but here where I live you'll never be able to make a living without a degree. Simply no one hires around here for a well paying job without one. Cosmetology is another route to go down though as that allows you to work in many fields here in LA. I would just advise against a vocational or trade school because they tend to cost a lot of money and offer little to no opportunity for a job afterward.

Again this is just from the Southern California area and things are much different here then when I lived in Washington. I agree with you though that teaching yourself is very important. Lots of introspective work when you're in the work force is a good thing, and of course lots of extra studying outside of work is even better. Finding personal drive is probably one of the most valuable skills in life and something I've been constantly working on lately.

[Coda]

I live in Los Angeles too. >.> So... not sure what to tell you there?

Degree beats non-degree if the two candidates have no past experience, because the degree is proof of effort. But have you ever seen someone with a degree but no work experience get compared to someone without a degree but with four years of work in the field?

First jobs are a completely different contest than serious career jobs. Yeah, it's important to get a first job, but you're only ever going to do it ONCE. If you don't have a degree, then find a journeyman-level job that WILL take you so you can GET experience, even if it doesn't pay well. After you've got on-the-job training, your qualifications will be just as good as someone who got a degree. And instead of PAYING money, you've been EARNING it -- even if it's a low salary, it's still positive cash flow.

I don't know where you're getting that information about vocational schools. You bring up cosmetology; what do you think a cosmetology certification IS? It's a vocational school! And in the tech industry, the short-term boot camps even have a GUARANTEE -- you get a job within a certain amount of time of graduating, or you don't pay for the tuition.

[Pessimisticat]

Quiet I agree that the further into your field you are the smaller the classes get and the more professors care. My SO goes to the university where we live, and I go to the CC and he is about done getting his Bachelor but is still stuck with really crappy professors. I am not saying all are bad, but a lot really are there just for research. Office hours are a thing for a reason, and I agree that going to them will help you get more face-to-face time with your professor. When getting a general education/first 2 years, at a university, you are more likely to end up with bad professors, I feel. The classes are huge and there really is no way a professor will take the time to get to know all of his students, and therefore that seperation leads me to believe there is also a lack of care. Granted, it will be up to you at that point to make yourself known and whatever.

Coda I don't think going to a community college out of state is the best idea, either. I, personally, go to one that is 4 1/2 hours away from where I grew up, so 4 1/2 hours away from my family. I also live in Florida, though, and it is a much bigger state than a lot of others. It is, obviously, still possible to go to a community college far away from home and not have to deal with out-of-state tuition.

Anyway, in my defense I am not saying CC > Unis.
Just for some jumping straight from HS to a Uni can be very challenging and taxing, when just going to a CC first might give them the extra time and skills they need. Plus, it can be cheaper, too.

[Raizu]

Originally Posted by Coda

I live in Los Angeles too. >.> So... not sure what to tell you there?

Degree beats non-degree if the two candidates have no past experience, because the degree is proof of effort. But have you ever seen someone with a degree but no work experience get compared to someone without a degree but with four years of work in the field?

First jobs are a completely different contest than serious career jobs. Yeah, it's important to get a first job, but you're only ever going to do it ONCE. If you don't have a degree, then find a journeyman-level job that WILL take you so you can GET experience, even if it doesn't pay well. After you've got on-the-job training, your qualifications will be just as good as someone who got a degree. And instead of PAYING money, you've been EARNING it -- even if it's a low salary, it's still positive cash flow.

I don't know where you're getting that information about vocational schools. You bring up cosmetology; what do you think a cosmetology certification IS? It's a vocational school! And in the tech industry, the short-term boot camps even have a GUARANTEE -- you get a job within a certain amount of time of graduating, or you don't pay for the tuition.

I was just trying to say maybe that our experiences were different because things aren't necessarily the same here in California as opposed to other places like where I used to live in Washington.

Yes, more times then not I've seen people with degrees get jobs over people with years of work experience. It's one of the problems right now in the work force. I mean back in 08/09 when older baby boomers were being laid off they couldn't get another job because even though they have 10 to 20+ years of experience there were younger people with masters getting those jobs instead. I've had employers tell me that they would rather pick someone with a degree over work experience because, and I'm not making this up, "people with degrees show a higher work ethic and better critical thinking and problem solving skills." Not only that, but I've heard people say that they prefer new blood as opposed to older people who are going to keep doing things the same way. The job market boils down to what new things you'll bring to a developing or already well established company because that translates to more money potentially. Companies want to see growth not stagnation.

I really do have to disagree with the first job statement though. You can have a first job and be in college. It's down right the worst thing ever because you're working 30+ hours/week and going to school 20+ hours/week and doing homework and projects for another 20+ hours/week but you're making money and going to school. If tuition is something that is a road block there are multiple ways to go about getting money for that. Many people offer grants and then there are the federal routes which again are the worst thing ever but they work. Really though I have seen people giving out grants because their kids would have inherited the money died and the parents just want to give it away.

I have found the myth of entry level to be a joke these days. Barely anyone promotes from within anymore to begin with. I don't even remember the last time I've heard or seen myself someone being promoted from withing without a degree or some kind of exponential achievement.

I wasn't saying that cosmetology wasn't a trade school I was just saying it's more times then not the one trade school that ends up paying out in the end :/

[Coda]

Originally Posted by Raizu

Yes, more times then not I've seen people with degrees get jobs over people with years of work experience. It's one of the problems right now in the work force. I mean back in 08/09 when older baby boomers were being laid off they couldn't get another job because even though they have 10 to 20+ years of experience there were younger people with masters getting those jobs instead. I've had employers tell me that they would rather pick someone with a degree over work experience because, and I'm not making this up, "people with degrees show a higher work ethic and better critical thinking and problem solving skills." Not only that, but I've heard people say that they prefer new blood as opposed to older people who are going to keep doing things the same way. The job market boils down to what new things you'll bring to a developing or already well established company because that translates to more money potentially. Companies want to see growth not stagnation.

There are several different factors in play there. That's not all boiling down to otherwise-equivalent degree-vs-non-degree comparisons.

Most significantly, you're talking about 2008-2009. That was the heart of the recession. Employment was crap all around there. And when money is tight, employers prefer younger hires to more experienced ones because they can get away with paying them less. If the older people actually expressed interest in a low-paying job, they'd probably GET it (which is why you see so many of them working at places like Wal-Mart, where you know your salary before you even talk to the hiring manager, so that issue is taken out of play), but they're probably applying for jobs that would sustain the standard of living they had become accustomed to.

The baloney about better work ethic is in part a rationalization and in part because younger people are perceived to have more enthusiasm because they're not old and tired and jaded, because younger people are more willing to put up with BS from employers because they don't know any better. In actual fact, that discrimination is ageism and it's illegal, but it's nearly impossible to actually litigate about it because basically nobody actually thinks they're ageist (or sexist or racist) -- they just follow their gut reactions and then come up with explanations for why they feel that way.

I really do have to disagree with the first job statement though. You can have a first job and be in college. It's down right the worst thing ever because you're working 30+ hours/week and going to school 20+ hours/week and doing homework and projects for another 20+ hours/week but you're making money and going to school. If tuition is something that is a road block there are multiple ways to go about getting money for that. Many people offer grants and then there are the federal routes which again are the worst thing ever but they work. Really though I have seen people giving out grants because their kids would have inherited the money died and the parents just want to give it away.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't advising that you try to hold your first job WHILE you were in school. I agree that's a very bad idea.

What I'm saying is to compare the following two people:
* 23-year-old with a bachelor's degree in English Literature
* 23-year-old with a 6-month certification and 3.5 years of on-the-job experience

One of them will have a minimum of $40,000 of student loan debt and a degree. The other will have earned over $60,000 in the same period and a resume. Even if the degree WERE a competitive advantage, that's a $100,000 difference to make up. How many years will that take?

I have found the myth of entry level to be a joke these days. Barely anyone promotes from within anymore to begin with. I don't even remember the last time I've heard or seen myself someone being promoted from withing without a degree or some kind of exponential achievement.

Who said anything about promoting from within? It's about building up your resume to apply to a better job. What better way to prove that you're worth your salt to a prospective employer than to show that you've been there and done that?

I wasn't saying that cosmetology wasn't a trade school I was just saying it's more times then not the one trade school that ends up paying out in the end :/

Tech industry trade schools do too. Manufacturing trade schools do too, but manufacturing jobs are dwindling in the face of automation and outsourcing.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Originally Posted by Pessimisticat

Anyway, in my defense I am not saying CC > Unis.

Just for some jumping straight from HS to a Uni can be very challenging and taxing, when just going to a CC first might give them the extra time and skills they need. Plus, it can be cheaper, too.

I found this for me, but it could also be that I simply suffered from not getting all the introductory new student stuff that happens in first year. Going into third year Uni, as I was, it's sort of assumed you know what you're doing already, and again, it was not just a college to uni shift, but a tiny college to big uni shift.

Money was my reason to start in college, and it amuses me to think that my dad likes to brag more about me getting out of school without debt, than about me having a degree.

* * *

Oh the topic of "what do I want to be when I grow up?" I've thought about this. I thought about it as a kid, in high school, in college, in university, after university, in university again...

And my answer is...I don't *%#&ign know.

Still.

I don't know.

I was going to go get a BSC after high school! No. I'm going to go to an art schoool. No. I'm going to get to that art school and get a degree in commercial design! No. I'm going to be a social worker! No. I'm going to be a librarian! Let's think about that last one.

I have an English lit degree, because I like poetry, not because I wanted to be a poet.

If you have a thought, try it. I actually tried to go for that commercial design degree, but I never made the portfolio I needed to apply to the school. That told me that I wasn't as interested in actually doing the work, as much as I liked thinking about it.

I got as far as applying to the school of social work at my university in year three but was rejected on the basis of lack of personal experience. The committee said right out to me that if I went and got that practical experience, they would let me in, because my GPA was (at the time) so high. I kept putting it off. That told me that general social work (which is where the bulk of the field is) is likely not the job for me, and I would be better off sticking with casual volunteering and such if I wanted to help people.

I'm in library science now because I was laid off from my previous work due to the economy and the opportunity to go back to school presented itself. Like poetry, I like libraries, and it's something I've always had in the back of my mind, just perhaps not as loud or as "cool" to me as the other ideas I had when I was younger, and I'm satisfied with the thought.

Look at me! I sound old!


TLDR:
If you don't know what you want to do with life (I never did) pick something and try it. You may find that while something seems like a good idea in your head, actually doing it is another matter.

[Potironette]

Hmm, I guess that means that I should try to try doing something. If I find myself not doing it at all, then move on to something else?


When I was younger I wanted to be a seamstress, but I wasn't sure I'd be dedicated to it.

Then I wanted to be a fashion designer, but I don't like to keep up with the "latest trends." And I don't draw well.

I wanted to be a potter, but not only was that unfeasible, I've only had one potting experience in my life.

I wanted to be a children's librarian because it seemed nice to be surrounded by books for kids all the time.

There was a point I wanted to be a maid, but I decided I didn't want to commit myself to that kind of lifestyle.

I wanted to be a person who rents out houses to people for the sake of free time.

I wanted to be a waitress once as a dream job once, but lack the social skills to do so.

I wanted to create a line of microwave ovens...that felt stupid after researching microwave ovens for a bit x'D.

I wanted to design website interfaces..because I wanted to get rid of those greeting slides that websites used, but that felt pretty unrealistic and weird.


So many things to try and I'm not sure how to get started on any >_<'

[Coda]

Why does being a website designer feel unrealistic? I was 12 when I first started dabbling in web design. The basics aren't nearly as hard as people make it out to be, and if you're a designer that knows how to make interfaces that are not just attractive but functional you can be sure there's a job waiting for you.

BTW, Quiet, sorry for knocking English lit majors. >.>

[Potironette]

Because who's to say my ideas of easy-to-look-at sites matched others' experiences? And because I haven't the faintest clue how to turn ideas into reality--it's like thinking about pretty art without knowing how to draw D:

[Coda]

That's okay. I don't know how to make attractive interfaces, either. But it's something that can be learned. You don't have to be good at it right away. You're still a teenager; you're not expected to already be a professional.

And the thing about design jobs is that you don't work in a vacuum. You have clients to work with, who tell you a general idea of what they want, and you have a whole Internet full of examples to look at to get ideas.

And as for turning ideas into reality... That's actually a fairly EASY skill to learn, when it comes to web design. Sure, some things can get technically pretty advanced, but it's all built up from a basic set of fundamentals. It's like math, in that regard.

[Potironette]

Oh! So it's like that--because of things like themeforest I assumed otherwise.

As for learning, well, it's like math also in the sense that trying to start and continue learning feels like wandering aimlessly. Although, I guess if I'm not wandering aimlessly I'm not trying?

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Originally Posted by Coda

BTW, Quiet, sorry for knocking English lit majors. >.>

No worries! I'm first to admit how useless my degree is except to say "I know English and can commit myself to long term endeavors!

I would put my favourite humorous quote here, but I went to look it up so I could get the wording right and found only serious topics. I love this field!