[Xun]

I honestly had no idea where to post this, but if it needs to be moved, then please move it. ;;

SO-- on deviantart, there was a prose written entitled, Mr. Abbine Speaks. Here's the link to it so that you may read it as well: Mr. Abbine Speaks

It's an amazing piece, I personally think, of how the human mind is perceived on what could be a daily basis. In the beginning of the piece, Mr. Abbine is interviewed and shown a couple of pictures and he regards them as people he meets up with. His opinion of each group is negative and he puts them down due to his experiences. It is then he's shown the last picture. One that is not described in any way. Mr. Abbine sees the picture and describes that its a person who is nothing but a lowlife and would die lonely because of them putting people down. The prose ends with the interviewer thanking Mr. Abbine and saying good-bye.

While this piece may be a good read, it has made people reflect upon themselves and realize what kind of person they truly were. People have admitted that they were this, "Mr. Abbine" in the story and have said that they want to change. In my perspective, I see their desire to change as means of "showing false humility" because even after you say this and people appreciate your words of "honesty," it can still make you feel all the more prideful about yourself and how you can put others down with such "fake humility."

...This is what I think. And out of pure honesty, I want to change for the better, but its hard for me to do so. Yes, I feel pride in wanting to change and wanting for you all to see it. That's what makes it difficult.

What's the difference between pride and humility? And how can you tell where to draw the line?

[Suzerain of Sheol]

I read the piece, read your thoughts, Xun, and have since been getting increasingly baffled and frustrated that I can think of almost nothing to say. This is a weighty topic, but I'm mostly drawing a blank for some reason.

The best I can come up with right now is something vaguely along the lines of a distinction between an egocentric view of the self and the other, and an exoteric view, but that would really be more of a sliding scale than a distinction... It's a question of motivation, I suppose, but the evaluation of that motivation has to be internally honest -- is the idea fundamentally self-serving or is it the product of higher-cognitive sympathetic and empathetic thought?

I don't know. That doesn't sound right to me, everything is ego-driven at the core, it's more a question of how much. Where does that leave us philosophically? I have no idea....

...that was me saying almost nothing. <_<

[Espy]

That was an amazing piece, but I've just been through a very messed up week, so my thoughts are....nonexistent. Or actually, very, very convoluted. So I'll get back to you on that.

[Xun]

If you guys are having trouble as to what to say, I understand. ;; So difficult to figure out what to really express or ...anything. Hopefully, after a good day and numerous times of reading this piece, we can figure something out. ;;

[Kristien]

Being aware of one's own faults and habits can be the first step to changing them. It can also be yet another step toward staying the same. It all depends on you. I think it's natural for people to want some recognition for the positive changes in their lives, to be able to hold some achievement up and say "Hey, I did this!" and have people be congratulatory. It's part of our natural social need, to be able to do this, to have people to do this with. The problem comes, I think, when you get so caught up in the hurrah, and lose sight of the achievement, so that you start to make things up, or hold up smaller and smaller achievements for people to ooh and aah over, rather than working toward your goal of change.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

When you mention it as a social need, it makes me wonder if humility, in some abstracted sense, is apathetic in nature. Ascetic traditions tend to be big on humility, and in a way humility is bound up with that sense of self-abnegation. After all, pushing away pride is essentially a suppression of the tendencies of the ego, so I guess then it's a question of the distinction between apathy for the validating needs of the fundamental self or apathy for the judgments of others and society. That's apathy either way, though, I'm trying to think of a mechanism where humility is socially productive, but I'm failing at the moment. I'm sure there must be one, at least theoretically.

I think I tied my brain in a knot there....

[Espy]

Suze, I think your brain's always in some sort of very convoluted knot.

[Umaeril]

I didn't really get it. Is that just me? I read it twice to make sure. But at any rate here is my take. Some people read stuff like this and make pronouncements about changing this or that and that is what is called "pride". And some people actually change what is not good about themselves but they say nothing about it, they just do it. That is humility.

[Xun]

Very interesting takes, though I must admit Suze, you certainly got me in a knot. lol

@Uma: I see what you mean, but what about the people who think, "If I post, people will think I'm prideful, so instead, I won't post at all to make it appear as if I'm humble?" and then those who realize people haven't posted would say, "You guys are so self-centered! You won't admit that you won't be changing for the good of others!"

...Or maybe we should just leave it at what you said, Uma, cause what I threw out just made it all the more concerning and conflicting. lol ;;

[Umaeril]

There are ways to post with pride and ways to post with humility. Being humble in daily life does not mean that you have to skip posting about your feelings. You can say that the piece is inspiring and leave it at that. But I will say this, people are generally interested in how something affects themselves. This is just human nature. And "I want to be a better person" is a not uncommon thing to say. So one has to get beyond that and understand why humans might reply in the ways that they do. Pride and humility are probably not black and white for most of us. I can say that personally I am humble about some things because I know there are many out there greater than me at what I do or think. And I have my soupçon of pride too just like many others.

In general (there are always exceptions) I personally don't think humility is apathetic or lacking in social productivity. It is the humble person who can set aside narcissism and keep learning even when they are master of their trade. This can promote social productivity and ultimately increases personal wisdom and is good for the general welfare of a community.

tl;dr?
In short, humans may have both pride and humility as motivations for the way they react to things and rarely is it black or white. There is likely a place for humility in social welfare.