[Suzerain of Sheol]

LotR, the Hobbit, the Silm, the Histories of Middle-Earth, his letters, anything having to do with his legnedarium belongs here.

Ea! Let these things be!

[Suzerain of Sheol]

So, now that I'm rested, I suppose it's time for an initial topic to discuss.

First up, Tom Bombadil. Who is he? Let's hear your theories.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

I sort of assumed that he was one of those characters who's job is to impart knowledge to the characters, though he didn't seem to do much else after the one encounter after the barrow wight. Of course, I only read LOTR so far and I hear allusions to him being more important or at least having more relevance earlier on. If memory serves, he passed on the legend of Luthien and Beren to Frodo et al in Fellowship, did he not?

[Suzerain of Sheol]

As far as I know, there's no consensus on just what he is. Tolkien said in a letter that he's a secret and going to stay that way. One of the things that makes the world seem bigger, you know TB is going to be there after the story ends, and he'll be just as mysterious then as he was early on. Life goes on.

I can't remember if he recounted Beren and Luthien or not. It was either him, or Strider at some point on their journey.

My personal pet theory is that Bombadil is a Maiar from the court of Yavanna who came into Arda as it was being sung into existence, before Morgoth touched down to earth and infected it with his evil. He seems to represent Arda unmarred, and if he was a Maiar on the same order of Sauron, it would explain his ambivalence toward the Ring.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Does Bombadill show up in Silm at all? I've only read LOTR plus Children of Hurin, which I'm not sure totally counts but he did intend it as one of the three stories he had intended to tell in greater detail, accoring to the forward, and a wee bit into the Hobbit. I was supposed to read that one for my kid lit course but I managed to get away with the knowledge I picked up from the old cartoon. ;).

Actually, when I was researching a paper for my seminar course I came across one of Tolkien's articles from when he was a univerity professor. I still have it somewhere. I ultimately didn't use it but it was interesting for some insight into his idea of fantasy and the nature of monsters and such. It dealt with Beowulf among other things. Something on "Myth and Monsters" or something. I'll have to go look it up.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

I don't think Bombadil is in the Silm, unless he in there under a different name, but Tolkien took that knowledge to his grave, if so. He did publish "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," which I've never read, but I've heard that they aren't very closely tied to Middle-Earth.

And, I very much want to read Tolkien's letters, I just haven't gotten my hands on the book of them yet. Someday, though.

And... time for a new topic. A question, this time. Do the events of the Silmarillion (particularly, the War of Wrath in which the Valar sweep out of the Undying Lands into Middle-Earth and cast Morgoth from the world) make the conflict of Lord of the Rings less meaningful? And, do you think if Sauron had prevailed in the end, would they have intervened once more, or let ME go to hell beneath his reign?

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Hard to say. I mean, Sauron is reletively small fry when it comes to Morgoth, right? Battles with him aren't about to reshape the planet. At least that's not how it seemed. The Valar (was it the Valar?) seemed unhappy enough with the elves going back to ME to deal with Morgoth's nastiness. It might end up being another matter of come here and be safe or stay over there and deal with what comes.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Well, you raise the crux of issue, actually. And I'll explain in a bit more detail, since I'm probably the only person here who's ever read that book.

Basically, the War of Wrath at the end of the Silm wounds the continent of Beleriand so badly that it fractures apart and sinks into the sea. Belerian was basically the north-west of Middle-Earth, if can picture an entire continent springing from where the Gray Havens are, more or less.

The revealed power of the Valar and the Maiar, against Morgoth's Balrogs and Dragons was enough to shatter mountain ranges and break the land apart, so I can see why they'd refrain from going to war again.

But here's the thing: Sauron isn't Morgoth. Sauron is only a Maiar, barely more powerful than a Balrog, if at all. The Ring doesn't actually enhance his personal power to any meaningful degree; that isn't what it was designed to do. It's actually made him weaker in a few ways, as by binding his essence to it, each time he's subsequently destroyed, a bit of his personal power is permanently lost, which is why he can no longer shape-shift, which was his signature ability in the Silm.

What I'm basically saying is that the Istari, if they hadn't been weighed down with a plot device to prevent them from doing so, should have been able to march into Bara-Dur, beat Sauron senseless, and drag him back to Valinor in chains to go wallow in Mandos for a few hundred millennia. Honestly, Curunir and Olorin alone (Saruman and Gandalf for those of you playing at home) should have been equal to the task. And conflicts between Maiar are using only on the level of city-smashing collateral damage at best, and really, who cares if Mordor gets laid to waste. It already is a waste.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Is it the destruction that is the issue? I wasn't sure if it's part of the Valar/Maiars interested to interfere in happenings on Middle Earth outside of the Havens/Undying Lands etc (not sure if we're talking the same thing with those or not). I guess part of it is my wondering how much the Valar et al. really care about the people. Some of the elves certainly weren't all that fond of the Valar and such. Would there be any obligation or inclination on the part of the Valar to go beyond making a safe place and ushering people there if they want to come?

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Well... this is getting into rampant speculation territory on my part, but I'll take a stab at it.

Basically, it's their job.

The Valar serve at the direct and express volition of Eru Iluvatar as the custodians of Arda. The only part of the world in which they (the Valar) had no hand in creating were the races (except Aule with the dwarves). Those were purely the offspring of Iluvatar and have always been a treasured wonder to the Valar, even when the elves quit Valinor and killed their brothers.

Bascially, Eru favors the Eldar and the Atani above all else in creation and... I just can't imagine that he would countenance an upstart Maiar like Sauron running Middle-Earth into the ground.

Of course, the problem with that is that Eru, for the most part, is an absolutely omnipotent deistic God, meaning that nothing transpires that he did not will to happen. So... Morgoth and Sauron all have some part to play in his grand design, whatever that might be.

As for the Valar themselves, it's their fault, besides, that Sauron is causing trouble in Middle-Earth. They bought into the same "oh, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again" con that Morgoth duped them with, and to similar results. You'd think they'd have the honor to own up and fix their mistake.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Ah. Yes, I think I recall something about that. Well that changes things doesn't it.

Well Gandalf andd Sarumon were taking a hand in things. If I recall -and am interpretting- the book correctly, then Sarumon was spying on Sauron through the Palantir but was eventually influenced by Sauron into working for him, possibly without being aware of it at first.

I guess, if the Valar are intended to defend the children of Iluvitar and such, then the question might be how much dirt must Sauron kick up before they feel obliged to intervene, especially since the denizens of Middle Earth are making their own attempts to deal with him.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Well, that's the thing, they sent the 5 Istari across to help out in the war against Sauron, only... they nerfed them, to use a decidedly un-Tolkienian phrase. And to me, that's always struck me as a plot contrivance so that the story could be told. I can't see any logical reason why Gandalf and co. needed to be all subtle and indirect. That hardly seems the most efficient way of dealing with the problem.

And Saruman is a bit of a can of worms. The Book of Lost Tales goes into a bit, but basically, he was a bad apple from the beginning, too proud and arrogant to ever achieve the purpose he was sent for.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Likewise too proud and arrogant to believe that the bad guy had gotten under his skin? That's something of the impression I got.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Well, yeah, he was just set up to fail. He believed he could learn all of Sauron's secrets and use them to overthrow him, and later, to establish himself as lord of the earth in Sauron's place.

I remember a scene in the Book of Lost Tales where the Witch-King comes calling at Isengard and they have a delightful exchange about who serve whom.

On the other hand, Olorin never wanted to go to Middle-Earth, and only sailed at the request of... I want to say Lorien (one of the Valar) but I can't recall, anyway, he was basically sent to be the voice of reason and temperance among the Istari.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, the other two wizards, Allatar and Pollando, both blue, went into the East and South, never to return. Tolkien mentions that they failed in their tasks, and it's likely that they gave rise to traditions of sorcery among the Easterlings and the Haradrim.

On the other hand, there's a theory that the Mouth of Sauron is one of them, corrupted by Sauron into his service and so twisted by evil that he forgot his own identity.

[Quiet Man Cometh]

The mouth of Sauron would be the creepy guy at the gate in the movie? Can't recall him from the book.

The only Istari -if I'm using the term right- that I recall really are Gandalf, Sarumon, and Radagast, who apparently could talk to birds and such. It annoyed me a little that he was axed from the film but I suppose he really wasn't all that important in the scheme of things, though he did help G escape from Orthanc. I remember him being seen as a bit too devoted to whatever it was he was supposed to be doing to be messed with by the dark powers.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Yeah, Radagast was a bad choice from the beginning, and they knew about his fixation on birds and animals. I honestly think that whoever was in charge of picking the Istari (can't remember) was completely incompetent. For super-secret demigod special forces, they couldn't be less suited for the task.

And, yeah, in LotR only those three are mentioned, but there are references to there being five. Tolkien only mentions the other two in his more apocryphal writings. He never really decided what he wanted to do with them.

And, yes, the Mouth of Sauron is the envoy who meets with Aragorn's army at the Black Gate and tries to get them to surrender. He does not get his head cut off in the book, as book-Aragorn isn't a witless thug who has no respect for diplomatic immunity.