[Lucid:]

Given your example, what if the enemy ADC has 2 kills? Now with your two kills you were able to buy a bunch of wards and an emblem of valor or a kindelgem. Your carry got 2 assists and has boots and a vamp scepter. But the enemy ADC has a bloodthirster. That is not beneficial to your lane at all.

Yes, a support getting a kill will always be better than nobody getting the kill. But the ADC will always be able to make better use of that gold. Only First Blood or killing somebody on a killing spree is worth 400 gold, and assist gold is only half the kill gold split between assisters. If jungle ganks and support gets the kill, your carry only gets 100g for first blood or 75 for any other kill. If the adc can get the kill, that's about three full waves of minions they don't have to farm before they get a damage item. If the support gets the kill and the carry gets an assist, then the carry is only about three measly minions closer to their damage item. And that's assuming that you're a diamond-level player and can get every creep.

Supports are designed to be able to run on little to no gold. If you watch the pro games in the LCS, many of the pro supports buy a sightstone, boots, and more wards. They don't buy Zeke's, they usually let the jungler buy Aegis/Locket, and the support is valuable because of the utility inherent in their kit. If Lulu, Janna, or Nami weren't allowed to buy any items, they would all still be perfectly functional supports.

[Law]

A kill is not worth 3 minion waves. Each melee minion at the start of the game is 22.5g each caster is 16.5g and siege is 27g at the complete start. They each go up by .5 per wave except siege goes up by 1 per wave it's in. It's worth a little bit more than two waves with no siege minion only for the first two waves. There's also a reason I used a case where the adc had 25 less CS because yall had kills to make it a bit more fair. If the enemy team died he should hopefully be the one with less CS though. It all comes down to who the kills were on, and if they were back to back since they decreased the amount of deaths you need to become worthless to the enemy.

I bet any pro player would rather have a chance to free farm over a kill any time then again last I checked people usually don't die in pro games.

[Lucid:]

Alright, worth two waves. I don't know exact minion values because I don't take creeps from my carry. ;)

Honestly though, I'm just really frustrated with people who play support but think they are entitled to any of the creeps or kills. And that's coming from somebody who plays almost exclusively support. Some people think that getting money is fun, but I think that using all my utility then dying while my carry gets a triple kill and gets out unharmed is fun.

I don't like comparing my game experiences to pro games because in Bronze, you're going to get more money from kills than from farm. If someone's mechanics are good enough to get 5/6 minions from each wave and not get harassed down to dead, they can almost certainly carry up to high silver or gold at least.

[Law]

When it comes to your lane if you're not the support you should be farming at the very least 4 out of the 6. Unless you were severely countered, and can't get near the wave. A support should also freely farm the lane when the ADC goes B so they should have a few CS end game. If a minion is about to die, and no one can reach it then it's your job to take it. Honestly the worst thing is the ADC that abuses the support because the support is basically their slave.

I wish people also understood what a minion tax was. If a jungler comes to gank your lane, and he wants to take 2 or 3 minions you have no right to complain. People do anyway though, or when they're not in the lane and you just take last hits they spend a ton of time hitting V ping on you. You can't reach these minions quit your whining.

Also wish the servers would come back online, so I can play against a bunch of bad Karmas.

[hyjin]

i want to play league now

[Hermes]

Meh, new Karma is cool I guess, I like her. I miss old Karma, I'll miss her being super-support. She's more like a weak mage now than a strong support, but she's been good to me so far. Her shields is definitely amazing, and the new mantra bonus on her Q has turned her into a real punisher. I went like 13/4/15 in a game earlier, made me happy xD

Abut support...support is support. No, you are not the ADC's slave, if they're playing poorly, feel free to take over, but don't make any assumptions. I think anyone with a view like yours should play more Soraka, seeing as she's the only actual support champion, and maybe Lulu. every other champion that supports is a mage/bruiser with some support capabilities.

Needless to say, me and Lucid agree on all points <<

[Law]

All the way from level 1 to 30 I played support. I'm well aware of how it works. Besides that discussion is long past. Lucid disagrees, so whatever. Literally use to get 30+ assists every single game especially as Soraka....nabbing bs assists from across the map. Soraka is really not that great of a support though. She's best with people like Ezreal, Corki, and Urgot just so they can spam spells. I feel like overall she's lacking compared to other supports though because she lacks CC.

[Lucid:]

Soraka was much stronger when she had stronger heals. Heals were her only strength and those got nerfed. I used to play a lot of Soraka back in the day but I almost never play her now because Sona or Nami provide adequate sustain while also bringing zoning potential and cc to the lane. I wouldn't agree that "every" other support is a mage/bruiser either though. Janna is a strong defensive support and a mediocre mage. Sona is terrible at being a mage and so is Nami. If anything, Lulu was one of the supports more capable of being a mage. Even though Leona wasn't designed to be a support, she's pretty terrible without teammates around to proc her passive.

Old Karma was terrible at supporting ranged carries. She was really great at supporting melee bruisers or melee carries or anything melee. I miss her team heal but I think that she's improved as a support somewhat. The spammable slow on Q is much better than the hard to manage slow on w was, and the new root on w is pretty valuable. The speed boost on her e helps a lot in securing a fleeing enemy as well. She feels a little weak early game, but with max CDR mantra seems to be up once per spell rotation which is nice.

[Law]

Leona was entirely designed to do nothing other than tank, and a few tanks fill the role of support. I think she is an amazing jungler though for the same reasons she's a good support.

She comes to the lane. Root, and Two stuns/stun and slow. Her passive brings extra damage to the gank. So she comes in CCs makes people hit harder and deals her own damage. Amazing jungle imo, but you can get fucked over hard because you can't really fight someone off in the jungle. Especially not Dr. Mundo.....

Oh and Soraka was fine, but then I think they nerfed her heal with a longer damn cooldown. Riot says screw sustain.

[Alpha]

Well, Zac has now entered the fray. Anyone bought and/or played him yet? Any opinions?

[hyjin]

Law has him. and there are youtube vids of him doing a jump smite over baron and dragon... its pretty op

[Renata]

betcha he gets hit with the nerf stick next patch.

[hyjin]

oh yeah he will

[Alpha]

Without a doubt....

[Lucid:]

Has anybody played CHEW yet? It's pretty hilarious and fun.

[Alpha]

I've played it. It brings back memories of the original arcade games....woohoo!

Also....anyone have any advice for playing Riven?