[nickjr]

LOL

So then we'd need to define what's as good as a starter dragon, because I'm getting a vibe from your posts that says 2.5x atk and 2.5x rcv isn't as good as 3x atk and 1.5x rcv (but then again, 2/4/2 teams were outshined by 1/9/1 teams back in 2014 and only recently are people starting to like 2/6.25/2.5 teams xD)

Haha oops I forgot that the Norns get higher attack at higher HP

Match-5-with-enhanced is fine, IMO, because of the current leads that use that mechanic (thinking of Tsubaki, Sumire, Awoken Tsukuyomi, Constellation 1 pantheon) as well as GH's apparent realization that they need to give OE awakenings in greater numbers so that OE teams can be competitive with TPA and row teams. Raw numbers in the leader skill alone really can't be used in comparisons, as I can tell you know. You're missing the OE boost for Sumire.

Assuming one blue OE per sub on a Sumire team, that's 8 blue OEs (Sumire has 2) on the entire team. 100% guaranteed +orbs, so calculations are simple. A match of 5 orbs gets 20.25x from double Sumire leads, 1 + (0.06 * 5) = 1.3x from the orbs being +orbs, and 1 + (0.5 * 8) = 1.4x from the presence of 8 OE awakenings on the team. Matching 5 blue orbs on a Sumire team therefore gives you 36.855x attack for that match.

5 OEs is standard for match-5-with-enhanced teams, similar to how 6-7 rows was standard for row teams; no one runs match-5-with-enhanced teams with fewer than 4 OEs unless they're desperate or something, just as no one runs row teams with fewer than 3? 4? 5? rows of their main color

Matching 4 orbs on an Athena team gives 20.25x attack to double TPA monsters and 13.5x attack to single TPA monsters. To get that 20.25x to match Sumire's 36.855x (which is with just 1 blue OE per sub) on an Athena team, you'd need a 1.82 to come from somewhere. With 9 light OEs, you get 1 + (0.06 * 4) and 1 + (0.05 * 9) for a light 4-match, which is only 1.798. Have fun trying to squeeze 9 light OEs into 4 subs lol Valk's easy, but beyond that...

Matching 4 orbs on a DIza team gives 36x to double TPA subs and 24x to single TPA subs without OEs. Including DIza's dark OE, the 36x becomes 36 * 1.24 * 1.1 = 49.104x and the 24x becomes 32.736x. 1/3 of a double DIza team carries 0 TPA, though, and will only get 21.824x. All of that is assuming all dark orbs are enhanced.

If there's a total of 6 dark OEs (average 1 per monster), then the initial 36x, 24x, and 16x instead become 36 * 1.24 * 1.3 = 58.032x, 38.688x, and 25.792x respectively.

Awoken Pandora, Awoken FA Luci, and Awoken Astaroth have all been shown to clear Arena (1.0 or 2.0, not sure) shortly after their releases. I didn't look carefully to see their latent setup or their subs, but... yeah...

Assuming 9 row enhances in a team (idk, 3 monsters with 1 row enhance and 3 monsters with 2 row enhances):

Matching 1 row of orbs means the multiplier is 1 + (0.1 * 9) = 1.9x

Matching 2 rows: 1 + 2 * (0.1 * 9) = 2.8x

Matching 3 rows: 1 + 3 * (0.1 * 9) = 3.7x

Double Divinegon gives 9x for 6 orbs from the leader skills. 1 row, 2 rows, 3 rows: 17.1x, 25.2x, 33.3x.

Heroes give the same but have higher multiplier options as well.
At 8 orbs it's 16x for double Hero leads (for all Heroes). 1 row: 30.4x. 2 rows: 44.8x.

3 rows of 9x or 2 rows of 16x? Time to add 25% base damage per extra orb per match lol

3 matches of 6 orbs = 3 * (1 + (0.25 * 3)) = 5.25x

2 matches of 8 orbs = 2 * (1 + (0.25 * 5)) = 4.50x

3 rows of 9x: 5.25x * 33.3x = 174.825x

2 rows of 16x: 4.5x * 44.8x = 201.6x

Better to make 2 rows of 16x than 3 rows of 9x (without taking attack stats and OEs into account AND without taking APandora's devil boost into account--btw, GH loves dark row devils)
Out of the row leads, I'm most familiar with the scaling of Hero leader skills (and, by extension, the Late Bloomer series's leader skills as well); not sure what other scalings there are

Unless otherwise noted, calculations were done without taking the extra base damage from matching more than 3 orbs (+25% base damage per orb) instead of 3 orbs into account

Match-5-with-enhanced also gets brownie points for being flexible in how you match those 5 orbs: cross, L, turned L, row, and column matches all work to activate the match-5-with-enhanced condition. I think this is true of all matches greater than 4, but in reality, 6+ matches are restricted.
Sumire gets brownie points for that awesome shield in her leader skill. Constellation 1 gods get brownie points for the resists.

I was gonna type more but I got caught up in the math (I like number-crunching) and wowee so much time has passed orz

Here's a PAD calculator if you're interested in seeing the damage of specific teams; I haven't seen anyone say anything bad about it
Did the math by hand using info from this thread as well as info from the last page of posts
And here's Sumire's page and the comment with the most net upvotes is a great Sumire guide; Sumire's a strong team lead not just for the stuff I covered in this post but also because of the synergy with two Sumire actives and her LS, etc.

Awoken Tsukuyomi requires a bit more skill, but a double AYomi team comes with minimum 6 dark OEs and 6 TEs

(There's also the ever-present SLR issue but that's a different beast, I think)

I was gonna start mathing with combo count and stuff because TPA teams don't mind combo shield while row teams do but ugh what am I doing with my time lol

[Demonskid]

-curious on what kind of team nick could build for DK- o3o

Week Day Dungeons are the theme. >:3 Mainly Thurs and Fri..

https://www.padherder.com/user/Demon...0,0,;default,0

Coda helped me with some teams. But I'm curious on Nicks Team

ILLU YOU JOIN IN TOO!

[nickjr]

Without looking at whatever teams you already put into PADHerder and also with suggestions of Awoken forms of stuff that you currently have in a regular or super uvo:

You could probably make a Skuld team; I'm not familiar with teambuilding for Skuld, but by eyeballing you could have Umiyama, Apex Starling, max skill Kamui, Wiz Merlin (Beast Rider), Muse, Awoken Lakshmi as subs, maybe Blue Odin and suepr uvo Andro as stat sticks idk + Snow White max skill can be nice if you want bind clears

Similarly for Urd; maybe Awoken Shiva or RB Shiva, your current Tyrannos, Wiz Merlin as subs, chibi cao cao as a budget sub if you want his active, but I don't see a burst option so idk

Awoken Bastet/GZL/Gilliam? problem is his skill level; maybe Saiga Another? except same problem/Awoken Susanoo/Verdandi

Verdandi/Delgado/Awoken Susanoo/GZL/steal from Awoken Bastet

So many light rows but no light row lead in your box apart from the healer-specific Awoken Ama D:

Awoken Yomi/Okuni/Dark Izanami/Pandora max skill/Vamp max skill or Chaos Dragon Knight, Voice max skill

Awoken FA Luci/Awoken or super uvo Pandora (idk)/Gryps Rider, Vector Finn? problem is his skill level/idk/idk

Awoken Pandora, steal Awoken FA Luci's subs

Durga/Dark Izanami/Okuni/Awoken Yomi/Satsuki
the problem here is Durga

I dunno how well any of these would work lol

[Demonskid]

maxing skillz is one of the pains of PAD ono

whats GZL? ouo,

[nickjr]

Green (Wood) Zhuge Liang, sorry xD

[Demonskid]

o3o Mr Sleepy has other colors?

[Illusion]

Originally Posted by Demonskid

-pets illu- o3o dk isn't smart enough to understand what they're talking about. do you understand?

>:3 Sparx might join us soon! muwahahahaha

That's the worst part! I understand everything completely.

Were in too deep.

[ml1201]

I don't know how far my friend has gotten, but they have been leaning towards a water/healer team with that one water/light guy that's riding a dragon and then becomes that knight looking thing. I want to say his name has Quin or something in it? But my healer team was mixed if you remember and I got pretty far with it before having a ton of issues. Also, getting close to evolving some of my other monsters, and right now I have a big back log of dungeons I can do to get gems because of how well my water team has been doing. .-.

[Coda]

Originally Posted by nickjr

LOL

So then we'd need to define what's as good as a starter dragon, because I'm getting a vibe from your posts that says 2.5x atk and 2.5x rcv isn't as good as 3x atk and 1.5x rcv (but then again, 2/4/2 teams were outshined by 1/9/1 teams back in 2014 and only recently are people starting to like 2/6.25/2.5 teams xD)

1/2.5/2.5 is slightly better than 1/3/1.5 if your team has enough base RCV to make the multiplier matter but not so much base RCV that it's wasted. I'll take even 1/3/1 over 1/2.5/2.5 if my team has enough base RCV.

Match-5-with-enhanced is fine, IMO, because of the current leads that use that mechanic (thinking of Tsubaki, Sumire, Awoken Tsukuyomi, Constellation 1 pantheon) as well as GH's apparent realization that they need to give OE awakenings in greater numbers so that OE teams can be competitive with TPA and row teams. Raw numbers in the leader skill alone really can't be used in comparisons, as I can tell you know. You're missing the OE boost for Sumire.

I'm not missing the OE boost for Sumire; I'm also granting it to the other two leaders because it's so easy to come by. (Athena in particular brings her own via her active.)

5 OEs is standard for match-5-with-enhanced teams, similar to how 6-7 rows was standard for row teams; no one runs match-5-with-enhanced teams with fewer than 4 OEs unless they're desperate or something, just as no one runs row teams with fewer than 3? 4? 5? rows of their main color

Rows aren't worth running with 3 because the math works out that two 3-matches is stronger than one 6-match until you have at least 4. At 4 you're slightly better than break-even on two 3-matches plus an extra combo vs. one 6-match plus an extra combo, but two 6-matches blows four 3-matches away.

My row team is packing 9.

The reason 5 OEs is standard is because 5 OEs is enough to make 100% enhanced orbs. The 4% damage bump for additional OEs isn't enough of a difference to bother stacking for.

Matching 4 orbs on an Athena team gives 20.25x attack to double TPA monsters and 13.5x attack to single TPA monsters. To get that 20.25x to match Sumire's 36.855x (which is with just 1 blue OE per sub) on an Athena team, you'd need a 1.82 to come from somewhere. With 9 light OEs, you get 1 + (0.06 * 4) and 1 + (0.05 * 9) for a light 4-match, which is only 1.798. Have fun trying to squeeze 9 light OEs into 4 subs lol Valk's easy, but beyond that...

Of Light gods with at least one TPA: Valk's got two, Verche's got one, Zeus&Hera has one, L/D Izanagi has one, Zeus Olympios has one, L/G Sakuya has two, chibi Metatron has one, Cinderella has one... and soon, reincarnated Verche will have THREE. <3

Or you could just pack Hathor with four OEs; she may not have TPA but she won't weigh you down.

I'm currently running Athena - Valkyrie - Verche - Z&H, and I've not settled on whether the last slot goes to Santa Claus (1xOE), Chibi LZL (2xOE), or Sun Wukong (none of the above but bind recover and a useful active). If I need the ATK more than the HP, I shuffle down and use LIza as a leader (1xOE). And finally, I'm training up a Zeus Olympios. With Zeus, that'll be 6 OEs on a full-TPA team, or 8 once Verche's reincarnation comes to the US.

So my team, once upgraded as mentioned, would do 3 * 3 * 2.25 * 1.24 * 1.32 = 33.1452x. Considering we're comparing a farmable leader to a REM leader so rare I've never actually seen one, that's pretty darn good. Replace one of those Athenas with a Kanna, or run Z&H as the leader instead of Athena, and that goes up to 38.67x -- and now you're beating double Sumire. Running two Z&H or two Kanna gets you to 45.1143x. Sumire's not looking very good anymore.

Matching 4 orbs on a DIza team gives 36x to double TPA subs and 24x to single TPA subs without OEs. Including DIza's dark OE, the 36x becomes 36 * 1.24 * 1.1 = 49.104x and the 24x becomes 32.736x. 1/3 of a double DIza team carries 0 TPA, though, and will only get 21.824x. All of that is assuming all dark orbs are enhanced.

If there's a total of 6 dark OEs (average 1 per monster), then the initial 36x, 24x, and 16x instead become 36 * 1.24 * 1.3 = 58.032x, 38.688x, and 25.792x respectively.

Well, assuming (extremely approximately) that each monster has equal attack, you can just do a weighted average, so (1/3)21.824 + (2/3)49.104 ~= 40.01x if all subs have 2xTPA and none have OEs, or (1/3)25.792 + (2/3)58.032 ~= 47.285x with more OEs. Again -- Sumire's not looking so amazing.

Awoken Pandora, Awoken FA Luci, and Awoken Astaroth have all been shown to clear Arena (1.0 or 2.0, not sure) shortly after their releases. I didn't look carefully to see their latent setup or their subs, but... yeah...

Okay, I spoke too strongly. Awoken Pandora et al aren't TERRIBLE. They're a little AWKWARD to get the full power out of them and their real benefit is that they're not uselessly nerfed if you don't and they have good synergy. Sumire's in the same boat: The power isn't in how good the leader skill is, it's in the synergy of what you can combine with it.

Of course, flat bonus leaders benefit from having extremely stable and predictable gameplay.

[nickjr]

I'm not missing the OE boost for Sumire; I'm also granting it to the other two leaders because it's so easy to come by. (Athena in particular brings her own via her active.)

There is a super big difference between having natural 100% +orbs and getting +orbs via active skills, especially with Athena's longer CD to compensate for the double OE (roughly 1 every 3.5 turns with max skill Athena leads). Plus there's also the teambuilding issue (Athena teams have 1/3 of the team dedicated to OE while Sumire teams don't need that) but that's a different beast

Of Light gods with at least one TPA: Valk's got two, Verche's got one, Zeus&Hera has one, L/D Izanagi has one, Zeus Olympios has one, L/G Sakuya has two, chibi Metatron has one, Cinderella has one... and soon, reincarnated Verche will have THREE. <3

Or you could just pack Hathor with four OEs; she may not have TPA but she won't weigh you down.

Hathor/reincarnated Verche/Rose/LG Sakuya subs brings you up to 11 OEs, sure, but Hathor and reincarnated Verche are pulling most of the weight. Take out Verche and then, from your list, you have Hathor/1 OE/Rose/LG Sakuya, which is 9 OEs. Take out Hathor instead of Verche and that's 8 OEs. Verche and Rose alone bring 5 OEs, but even though they're farmable and good Athena subs, that's really restricting who you can bring as Athena subs if you're aiming to get 9 OEs.

Sumire teams, meanwhile, get 4 by default from their leads. 1 OE per sub isn't that hard to do. If you're building a Sumire team then you probably have other blue subs that'll work well, and 2 blue OEs on monsters isn't uncommon. (On top of that, there's also natural 40% heart OEs from double Sumires, which not only provide enhanced healing but can also be heartbroken into enhanced blue orbs.) Awoken Isis, Hera-Is uvo, Skuld, Umiyama, Apex Starling, Ars Paulina, Christmas Ars Paulina (x5), Summer Awilda (x5), Summer Urd if you got her, Alrescha. Some of the mons with only 1 blue OE also have off-color OEs, which are super helpful too when puzzling (as someone who has played AYomi and Sumire). All of the options I listed are monsters I would actually use on a Sumire team, too, although I'd probably readily switch out Hera-Is uvo and regular Ars Paulina. There are also other options like Haku, who I would use on a Sumire team as a really nice stopgap ("really nice stopgap" in comparison to how newer players may use dublits as stopgaps)

For double light OE, cards I would actually use (Genie...) include Defoud, Verche (x3), Rose, Hathor (x4), Ars Nova (x4), Fat Chocobo if I want a board reset (looking at you, poison enemies :U), NY Sandalphon (x5), and Pollux. Not necessarily worse than what's there fore blue OEs, but it seems to be about the same, and Sumire teams naturally have 4 blue OEs from the leads to begin with.

Also Sumire still has the match-heart-cross thing in her leader skill and it's incredible now with 75% damage reduction for double Sumire leads. (It's great. And yes it's entirely doable to activate it when needed, as long as I don't get trolled super hard.) Both parts of her leader skill are guaranteed to be activatable (unless there are locked orbs but you don't see those until much later) upon using both Sumire skills, plus you get everyone else hasted 2 turns. If Sumire's damage mutliplier still doesn't look good after bumping up my conservative estimate of 1 blue OE per sub, then the tradeoff in her LS must be in her heart cross match.

With Zeus, that'll be 6 OEs on a full-TPA team, or 8 once Verche's reincarnation comes to the US.

[...] and that goes up to 38.67x -- and now you're beating double Sumire.

A double Sumire team with only 1 blue OE per sub. There are a ton of options for what I can use for a double Sumire team if I'm okay with having only 1 blue OE per sub--and if I have two blue OEs on some subs, I wouldn't even be indecisive about putting a non-OE member into the team (e.g. Andromeda, even before super uvo) like you are with Wukong.

Considering we're comparing a farmable leader to a REM leader so rare I've never actually seen one

No doubt Athena's good, but... Sumire's rare??? Really????? Certainly not as popular as other leads (the awoken shivas are multiplying plz halp), but I got a few to randomly pop up on my friends list, and it wasn't that hard to find people using Sumire. She's only a 5* GFE and she is also a strong lead.

Sumire's in the same boat: The power isn't in how good the leader skill is, it's in the synergy of what you can combine with it.

I think it's both. Teambuilding for Sumire is great, but her leader skill is great, too. I mean, you can have amazing subs but if you have a crappy LS then your subs mean nothing. Sumire's LS combines great damage (even if it's outshined; just because sth isn't the best doesn't mean it's crap, right) with what is effectively a powerful on-demand shield.

Similarly for Awoken Yomi. She can build a great team AND support that team with an awesome LS. Even a 5-match and only 5 other matches (not pro enough to hit 6 other matches orz) puts out great damage.

[Coda]

No one on my buddy list, no random allies I've seen, and no ranking results team has ever run Sumire. I've seen Tsubaki a few times, but I also consider Tsubaki substantially more powerful than Sumire as well as substantially safer. (I've not seen Kaede either but she doesn't have the 5-match LS so she doesn't really come into the discussion.)

I suspect there may be a clustering phenomenon going on in terms of buddy lists -- people generally will invite buddies that have leaders that work with their own teams, and Sumire is worthless for TPA and rows.

Anyway, as I said: Sumire isn't a bad monster. I never said she was. She's still solid. I just think the mechanic she's based on sucks, and there are plenty of better options out there, many of which are easier to get or more common to be able to pair with.

(Side note, it's fairly meaningless to compare star ratings, because they're not assigned particularly consistently, especially over time.)

[nickjr]

Yeah, there's probably some clustering phenomenon going on haha I've never seen a Dark Izanami on my friends list even though I sometimes use her for mindless farming of Hyperion Lava Flow through Ocean of Heaven

Well darn, I misunderstood what you said earlier, then lol yeah, the mechanic alone sucks, but I think GH has been doing a good job of compensating for that via awakenings and LS power so that the match-5-with-enhanced leads are strong.

I mentioned Sumire's rarity in reference to REM rates and entirely independent of my mention of her strength as a leader.

(Also I love pairing Sumire with uvo Blonia--and no, it's not because of Blonia's OE lol I usually forget that it's there xD Sometimes I like it more than double Sumire leads, but that depends on my mood lol I like them both and they each have pros and cons and I can't figure out which one I like better based on that xD)

[Demonskid]

o3o questionz!

BOdin's thingy says this:
1.5HP & 2.5 ATK for Water Att. & God Type; ATK increases erasing 4+ linked water orbs.

So, that & in there for Water Att. & God Type.. does that mean Water OR God or is it better that my Water team be gods for my BOdin lead like i have it o3o

BOdin, Andromeda, U&Y, Muse, Okuni, BOdin
Okuni (Dark/Water) will be switched out with Orochi when/if I get him. o3o

[Coda]

I explained this via IM before I saw the post, but just to make sure it's here in the thread:

This means the bonus applies to Water monsters and to God monsters, but only once. I've never seen a single bonus that requires two conditions for a monster to trigger.

For comparison, Shiva Dragon's text says 2xATK to Fire; 2.5xATK 1.5xRCV to God. Since these are two separate bonuses, they apply separately, making it give 5xATK to Fire-element God-type monsters.

[Demonskid]

ono laaamez, but yes, i posted about the odin thing here for others to read. When I had that one Fire team with my starter dragon. Someone asked why I didn't have all Fire-Element Dragon-Type mons to get the full boost.. but then again, the water/god thing on Odins team works best cause of muse *u* so they has to be gods


So... When will the US get rid of the Cost restrictions on these dungeons =w= -stabs tengu dungeon-

If I get lucky on floor 1, they wont all attack at once. Unlucky They all attack me at the same time.. damn Ogre 3:<

If I get lucky and beat floor 1, i get a bad board on the Ninja floor.. for low level ninja they hit hard 3:< gyaa! fking ogre... I BLAME THE OGRE! D8<

[Illusion]

Planning out my upcoming Fenrir team that I'm working on.

I have 4 Fenrir's but that's going to be irrelevant soon because Fenrir is becoming a rainbow leader....

x.x... I guess I should just skill up Z8 to max and call it a sub.