[Meizicht]

"You can have a butch transwoman, and she's still a woman even if she acts masculinely and has a Y chromosome."

( Edit: Realized after I posted that I got the quote backwards, but my point is still relevant. What I read the statement above was "Female-to-male transgender is still a woman because of the chromosomes they have". Sorry for the misunderstanding, Coda. OTL Still making my point though. )

( Editing this in: I took the quote specifically, though the message of Coda's post is an entirely different thing. I'm taking this snip kind of as a subject to address, not a response to Coda's post, technically. )

This I have to partly disagree with. While a female-to-male transgender may still be biologically a woman, that does not mean that they are. There are many many ways to take what a person "is", whether just physically, or generally, or as a person. I consider transgendered people the gender that they identify with, rather than the chromosomes they have. As much as this statement is correct in a biological sense, it isn't in a social/emotional/mental sense. That transgendered person is as much a male as any physical male, and they should be treated as such, in my opinion.
To them, gender as a social construct ( as I understand it ) is empowering because they can finally be who they feel the most comfort being, instead of alienated as something they do not identify with. If gender stereotypes didn't exist, this wouldn't be such a huge problem ( though it would still be a problem, just not as extreme, I'd think, since a lot of the social stigma, stereotypes, gender-roles and such would be eliminated and all that's left is the physical issues. ) You can't really say that it isn't a social thing ( though I know Coda wasn't saying it wasn't at all; I'm just pointing this out specifically ).
But elaborating more on the empowerment issue: pronouns in particular ( as I believe pronouns fall under the social part of gender ) are important to many people, if they identify with another gender especially. It is an insult to have that totally ignored just for their biological "parts" so to speak. If it wasn't social at all, then transgendered individuals would be trapped inside themselves until they had the money and the courage to get years of treatment and surgery to change it.
I'm kind of drifting from my actual point though, and that is; saying that a person "is" a specific gender is also really edgy. Some people look at it from a physical perspective; others look at it from a more personal or mental perspective. Some look at it in other different ways.
It's really, when it comes down to it, just up to the individual.

I know what Coda is saying though. Taking into account all the perspectives in the world, this is a very scattered subject. That's the reason why threads like this exist; to get those opinions and to share them and see those perspectives. I know Coda wasn't saying it was a solely biological issue, nor social, and so on. I believe others are aware of this also, but they're allowed to hold their own opinion on it, whether they think in black and white, gray, yellow, blue, polkadot, whatever, lol. Just as I think gender should be social while sex is biological ( And I know there are flaws ), yet I am fully aware others do not think this way.

[Kaunisenkeli]

Coda: Absolutely! This past summer, I took a Psychology of Gender class that was being offered at my college. At the end of the last class, the prof asked us each if our opinion on the biological/societal divide in gender had changed at all. All but maybe two said that the class really had changed the way they viewed gender. It's such an incredibly complex thing, and it isn't pure anything.
Also, I actually know a trans-woman through Gaia who nobody questions the fact of her being a woman, but she could be seen as a complete butch lesbian stereotype in how she dresses and acts (I'm kind of a half-femme/half-butch lesbian, myself). For people who have challenged me on some of my behaviors, I just tell them that I've been through everything I have to finally be myself, so why would I turn around and start acting like a stereotype (feminine, masculine, or otherwise).

Also, Tiva: There has been some work done in genetics that suggests even the old sex chromosome dynamic most people know (X-Y, et al), and we aren't even getting into intersexed folks (people with XXY, men with XX, women with XY... and on into complication). The last I heard on it was several years ago, but according to what I read there were several more genes involved in keeping even adult bodies towards one side or the other, physically speaking. More studies need to be done on this, but it's interesting all the same.

[Tiva]

Coda, that is a generic, generically there are 7 genders that people identify with on a global scale if you like i can go into more detail of how anthropologically you taught the 7 area of gender. In Islam a masculine female is someone who does Male activities but is female by sex and identify as a female. Same with feminine male, they preform a women's actives but are male by genetic sex and identify as a male. Those are about the easier ways to put it because innersex in the Jewish circle is Androgynos, while in Indonesia is if Bissu. They are both a third gender meaning innersex.

And yes it is that easy Coda, genetically if you have a Y chromosome you have more 'maculine features' such as a triangular pelvis and larger mastoidal processes. When you lack a Y chromosome your pelvis is a more round to square shape to provide for child birth. Really it is only 2 sex system because the third sex is an 'indeterminate' meaning it is a mix of features and not clearly defined. Hermaphrodites are classified by what works, egg or sperm production. And if neither work they are classifed by if they lack or have a Y, if they have XXY and a working penis they are classified as male, if no working penis then female. If XYY (super Male) you are typically a sterile male, due to working a penis.

Who you are attracted to, and what sex you wish to identify as, is part of Gender. Ulti please dont read this... I dont want to offend you but anthropologically this is how it is defined. Even if your brain identifies as female and you change your soft tissue to become more female(defined as XX) your DNA still shows as XY(defined as male). You chose to either call yourself transgendered, meaning that you have physically switched your gender, or you identify as the gender of your new body.

In the United States your birth certificate has two boxes, male or female. Those are the only genders that the united states as a government identifies and endorses. Ulti choses to mark the box called other on some forms but in a US census you do not have a 3rd box to mark, it is male or female and Ulti will have to choose to mark one of those boxes and identify as that for census purposes.

I am in Anthropology, this is how we are taught. If you don't agree with it... then get the US to change how they want it taught.

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by Tiva

Ulti chooses to mark the box called other on some forms but in a US census you do not have a 3rd box to mark, it is male or female and Ulti will have to choose to mark one of those boxes and identify as that for census purposes.

I have yet to see an "other" option on an official-like form of any kind x.x; Sometimes on school surveys and such I've seen "man, woman, transman, transwoman" ... which still does not include me x.x;;
Yeah, I cannot even begin to tell you how much it sucks being an "other" that few even want to acknowledge the existence of...

And by the way, no worries. It takes a lot more than talking about the facts to offend me ^^

[Coda]

I said transwoman -- that is to say, a MtF individual. Therefore this person is a woman, regardless of the fact that she has a Y chromosome. She has male physiology, but this only matters to medical professionals and sexual partners, and considering her "male" in any social sense is simply incorrect.

If gender stereotypes didn't exist, then yes, transgendered individuals would be less stigmatized, but they would still exist. Many would find comfort in simply being queer, but others would still find a strong sense of dysphoria concerning the mismatch between their minds and their bodies.

[Meizicht]

Coda: I realized that after I posted. xD
I'm sorry for misunderstanding, I was reading pretty quickly, and got chromosomes confused and backwards. ^^;
I've heard "transwoman" used in many ways ( I had thought you'd meant it as a female-to-male transgender who acts masculine but "is still technically a woman because it is physically so". That was the subject I was trying to address, and misunderstood, but it's still relevant. Just the quote was wrong. )

And I did say that even though a lot of the issue would be eliminated if gender stereotypes didn't exist, the physical issue would still be there, so we've basically said the same thing. xD

[Coda]

No, Tiva, it is not that easy.

Imbalances in fetal hormones during pregnancy can cause such effects as CAIS, in which a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't metabolize testosterone and other androgens and as such their body develops under the influence of estrogens -- you end up with someone who appears female in every manner, including having a vagina instead of a penis, but carries a Y chromosome.

Hormones control fat distribution and tissue development. Even without a genetic intersex condition, under the influence of estrogen, a male body will grow breasts, will add new fat deposits to the hips instead of to the waist, will experience muscular atrophy, and will experience thinning of body hair. Under the influence of testosterone, a female body will experience muscle growth, hair growth, and deepening of the voice.

You can say that world cultures define genders that fall into seven rough categories, except that doesn't mean much. Even ignoring the fact that your categories conflate gender with sexuality, which is a pretty fatal blow for the theory, it provides no useful predictive value, because the social stereotypes RELATED to those seven categories vary from culture to culture.

Official documents offer M and F boxes, but that's because the law is a machine, a computer, an inflexible, ignorant piece of bureaucracy that doesn't care about human beings beyond their value as statistics. Only human beings can have value judgments. And note that at least one high-profile case in Australia has an official government ID that says "Gender: Not Specified" instead of "M" or "F".

So please, discard your preconceived notions and your attempts to define definite categorizations of what gender is and isn't. At best you can set up statistical groups, but no hard division of genders will ever encompass everyone.

[Meizicht]

I think it's also very important to mention that though it may be "legally" seen so black and white in the US, this country was built by a very specific perspective. The options that our laws have are very biased, especially when it comes to gender, sexuality, religion and freedoms. It is old-fashioned, messy and hard to modernize. You can't deny that the laws are generally decided by those who do not see from the perspective of gender being such a gray, complex issue, therefore our laws reflect that.
It is all one huge opinion.

( Fixed some strange typos; I'm seriously getting things messed up tonight. Dx )

[Tiva]

Ulti my brain identifies you as innersex, meaning you don't define yourself as male or female socially and are a blend of both. If you want to correct me and identify as both male and female I would probably reclassify you as Bisexual (meaning of 2 sexes). But I typically use the 7 gender system

Male- those who identify as male in the social role
Female- those who identify as female in the social role
Bisexual- Those who identify as both male and female at the same time in a social role
Transgender- those who want it to be known that they were born a different gender but have taken on the opposite gender role in both body and mind (Male or female) ei. My friend Tobias
Feminine Male- Identifies as male but enjoy feminine actives and takes on the woman's role in social situations ie Fa'fafine in Samoan culture
Masculine Female- Identifies as female but enjoy masculine actives and act like a male in certain social constructs ie Tomboy
InnerSex- identifies as neither male or female but a blend of both

Coda i addressed part or your argument in my previous post..

[Ultima]

I think you mean "intersex"? in which case, that means someone who has ambiguous genitalia and isn't a mental gender. And I think you mean bigender instead of bisexual... I think owo;

Either way is not completely correct ^^; I identify as genderqueer. Which to me is more "inbetween" than both/neither. It's a hard concept to explain, but that's how I identify ^^;

I know a lot about transgenderism ^^;;;

[Tiva]

No I am going off how I wrote categories down 2 years ago for a class.
Innersex means no mental definition of gender despite whatever your genitalia is. Intersex is a different term than Innersex in the anthropological community. It deals with their soft tissue, and their gender identity not one or the other.
Bisexual = Bigender, but my teacher prefers to term bisexual, she is an older woman in her 70's, I don't argue.

Genderqueer is Innersex in the broad category of not identifying as either sex but a mix of both or not defined. I swear to god I am having to pull out notes from my intro to cultural anthropology class. Gender definitions has it's own class... if you can tell how hard it is for us to categorize.

[Coda]

And even then bigender and androgynous aren't synonymous terms; while both refer to a blend of male and female traits (and some people consider bigender to be a subtype of androgyny) they're different identities.

Edit: Bisexual is NOT bigender. Bisexual refers to what partners you're attracted to; bigender refers to having an identity consisting of two genders. Your teacher is quite simply wrong and you shouldn't take what she says for granted.

[Ultima]

ISN'T GENDER FUN, KIDDIES? 0w0

[Tiva]

Splitting hairs Coda, broad categories meant to encompass larger groups so when dealing with peoples of different countries with different gender ideals you have a basic understanding.

No Ulti gender is not fun, I have to take that class if i want to work internationally... so I don't go "oh the bones lean 90% towards the XX sex so they would be female" (what I would most likely say in the US) and offend some one and get killed instead i have to go "They lean toward the XX sex so socially you would call them Female, (insert Masculine Female group subtitle), (insert Innersex title), or (insert Transgender title)."

[Coda]

Those categorizations are fine if you're trying to understand a culture, but NOT if you're trying to understand a person. Those categorizations will ALWAYS leave people out unless you're defining "innersex" as a catch-all "other" group, and then it loses all useful descriptive value.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm defining the universe of discourse.

[Kaunisenkeli]

Originally Posted by Ultima

ISN'T GENDER FUN, KIDDIES? 0w0

Yes, yes it is.