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Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Default   #33  
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Originally Posted by Lawtan View Post
Not meant as slander, honestly. More meant to illustrate his constructionist ideas with morality and maintaining the social/emotional benefits of religion, without religion. But, I digress...
Apologies, I misunderstood. It's the sort of thing your hear Christian fundamentalists use in debates, that "militant Atheists" just make a God of science and are as fanatical as they themselves.

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It sort of is the question "what is a god?" It is hard to ascertain godhood, when the idea of a god is on the whole contradictory. There are some typical aspects, with which an approximation can be made (like has been done with the concepts of life, death, and will) - namely that a god has physical power, superior knowledge, and can manipulate the laws of the area (not all gods are omniscient, or even immortal)...but several would disagree. Some societies use "god" to explain why we irrationally value anything, and that god is rather impersonal and powerless. Others are almost like Greek Heroes - God-Kings.

So...I don't know how the construction of a powerful entity would resolve a definition-based dilemma/disagreement. Is it made more clear in Sam's thought-problem, or did I misread the idea?

(I hope I did not come across negatively or dismissive, but am honestly confused as the solution seems like answering a circle with a square)
It's not that I disagree with what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much stock into my use of the word God; it wasn't really the point of the problem. You can substitute "arbitrarily powerful intelligence" if it makes it clearer. Or are you saying that the question of whether it can be called God or not is relevant to the question of the moral imperative of creating it? Because that might also be an interesting question.

And just to clarify, most of what I'm saying here is my extrapolation and reaction to Sam's thoughts on the matter, he doesn't actually have all that much to say about it. I can find you the clip on youtube if you're interested, though.

(Also, Pigeon, I'm sorry if this is hijacking your thread. We can take this to PMs if needed.)
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 09-20-2015, 05:24 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #34   Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Probably part the bit about "calling it a God is not relevant to its moral imperative" - was more confusing, but in retrospect it does fit into the "an alternative term for divine is 'something of value'" idea.
I can understand the idea - sort of akin to my idea of efforts to make something more sustainable/survivable than what exists in nature - go extremophiles!

(And yeah, sorry for the detraction)
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
__

��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 09-20-2015, 06:48 PM Reply With Quote  
MyPerfectPigeon MyPerfectPigeon is offline
Dazed
Default   #35  
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Originally Posted by Lawtan View Post
A plausible mechanism of the alien abductions (and other mythical based culture-based mental illnesses could be as a way to alleviate cognitive dissonance. The brain often goes to great extents of contradiction, compromise, and self-delusion to avoid the pain of holding contradicting thoughts/ideals. An example being in the Salem Witch Trials (at least by my interpretation of events) where the culture there made it more acceptable to accuse an African woman (and others) of witchcraft rather than be caught socializing with her (or having relationships with others). The girls would have tricked themselves into believing witchcraft made such "evil" things seem okay rather than question the values of their culture. (This also factors into the hostility seen in some areas today to modern ideas, and how activism/speech for those ideas can if handled poorly result in a more close-minded audience...though I may be going too far there.
Yeah, I understand where you're coming from on the alien abduction area. Do you think trying to suppress their own ideals results in mental illness?
Old Posted 09-24-2015, 03:29 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #36   MyPerfectPigeon MyPerfectPigeon is offline
Dazed
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Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol View Post
I should have been more specific, I think people who believe the stories of abductees, and just believe in "UFO culture" in general, exhibit an anthropocentric narcissism -- and there's nothing particularly odd about that, we're a very narcissistic species. We only have our own frame of reference to work with, so it isn't that strange that we tend to consider ourselves the center of the universe as our "default" setting.
Do you think it's natural for humans to consider ourselves as a species more important than other things? What are your opinions on extremist religions that value other life so much, practitioners sweep the walkway before them to avoid harming insects?


Quote:
Given that, the question is: if we as humans were capable of giving birth to the closest possible approximation of a physical God, would it not be the moral imperative of our species to do so? How could any number of human lives matter against the existential imperative of such an intelligence?
Would the agi's alleged morals be programmed by us or learned somehow by observation?
Do you think it would be irresponsible to make such a being, as it isn't implausible that it can rule other civilizations, forcing human morality onto them?
Old Posted 09-24-2015, 03:36 PM Reply With Quote  
MyPerfectPigeon MyPerfectPigeon is offline
Dazed
Default   #37  
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Originally Posted by Gallagher View Post
Honestly, I don't know much about Scientology. It's not one that particularly interests me. Jediism, on the other hand, is really cool to see how it's taken off in the last 15 years or so. I never watched the movies, so I don't exactly know what code they follow or their, hm, role models I suppose? I dunno. It's very interesting, though, so long as they're not the type that uses it as an excuse to act up in public, cuz that's never cool.

Havism isn't one I've heard much about, but it sounds about as nice as any other. I mean, in my household, we have a wide range of beliefs. I'm JW, obviously. My mother is Christian, my bio-mother is Wiccan, and her hubby is... I believe Asatru, but don't quote me on that. My father was Catholic before he passed. So, as long as a religion doesn't encourage someone to harm others without good reason, I consider it valid. And I always approve of any teachings that want individuals to seek their own answers.
I have a profound interest in Scientology due to what it's based on and what draws people to join it. I visited the Church of Scientology near me for the first time yesterday. It was nice.
Jediism also interests me, but for reasons slightly different than your own. It's an almost exclusively online community and I really am curious as to how that works, since there are sermons apparently.

Havism is probably the newest religion out of the three, so it isn't well known. I personally like its values, which is why I converted.
That's awesome your family is so religiously diverse :) What is asatru, if you don't mind me asking?
Old Posted 09-24-2015, 03:40 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #38   MyPerfectPigeon MyPerfectPigeon is offline
Dazed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawtan View Post
(And yeah, sorry for the detraction)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol View Post
(Also, Pigeon, I'm sorry if this is hijacking your thread. We can take this to PMs if needed.)
No need, no need. I appreciate the courtesy, but I encourage having respectful discussions here :) so carry on by all means
Old Posted 09-24-2015, 03:45 PM Reply With Quote  
Gallagher Gallagher is offline
It Won't Stop
Default   #39  
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Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon View Post
That's awesome your family is so religiously diverse :) What is asatru, if you don't mind me asking?
It's old norse gods, like Thor and all of them. He has the warrior mindset and everything.







Old Posted 09-24-2015, 04:07 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #40   Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon View Post
Yeah, I understand where you're coming from on the alien abduction area. Do you think trying to suppress their own ideals results in mental illness?
Technically, they are diagnosed as psychosis in cases where the idea results in harm (their own or others)...mental illnesses again here being a rather iffy term. As Suze may agree, by certain definitions of mental illness, all human society is delusional and ill.
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
__

��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 09-24-2015, 10:48 PM Reply With Quote  
Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Default   #41  
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon View Post
Do you think it's natural for humans to consider ourselves as a species more important than other things? What are your opinions on extremist religions that value other life so much, practitioners sweep the walkway before them to avoid harming insects?
I couldn't honestly tell you. If I ever had the opportunity to speak with a member of such a religion, I'd have a some questions for them, I suppose. But extremism by its nature isn't representative of anything but itself. I'm sure you'd have to examine the specific circumstances in how those belief systems came about, and even then, I wonder if a person who operates in such a way could even have a meaningful conversation with someone of my persuasion, or if the two philosophies are so incompatible that nothing of value could be derived.

Quote:
Would the agi's alleged morals be programmed by us or learned somehow by observation?
Do you think it would be irresponsible to make such a being, as it isn't implausible that it can rule other civilizations, forcing human morality onto them?
That is a far more practical question than accounted for in the thought experiment I laid out, and probably a far more interesting (read: disturbing) topic for our near future. I'd say that's a perfectly valid concern. I think Sam Harris brought that up in his talk, too, how you wouldn't exactly want, say, the representatives of genocidal regimes on the United Nations to have a say in the programming of the hypothetical intelligence in question.
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 09-25-2015, 02:55 AM Reply With Quote  
Default   #42   Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol View Post
I wonder if a person who operates in such a way could even have a meaningful conversation with someone of my persuasion, or if the two philosophies are so incompatible that nothing of value could be derived.
I highly respect those belief systems where people value other life above human convenience. I wouldn't think that they would be too dissimilar to the imperative of supporting a superior moral intelligence that may decide to eradicate mankind. Certainly neither favors human as special or superior, but both see humanity as having a function or role. (Though, "fluffiness" can be a thing here...sort of like "softness" of science fiction)
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
__

��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 09-25-2015, 07:48 AM Reply With Quote  
Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Default   #43  
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawtan View Post
I highly respect those belief systems where people value other life above human convenience. I wouldn't think that they would be too dissimilar to the imperative of supporting a superior moral intelligence that may decide to eradicate mankind. Certainly neither favors human as special or superior, but both see humanity as having a function or role. (Though, "fluffiness" can be a thing here...sort of like "softness" of science fiction)
I'll confess I'm not terribly familiar with those faiths, nor even which particular ones we're talking about. Jainism is one, yes?

Perpendicular to that topic, though, I also meant to mention the... I don't know about similarity, but overlap of the concept of Nirvana and liberation from Samsara (I know very little about this, correct me if I'm abusing these terms) with the pessimist/nihilist view on the banality of human consciousness. On at least a basic, conceptual level the self-annihilation spirituality of those systems seems at least in a nearby framework (1) to the positions like mine that hold the current state of evolved human self-awareness to be an unnatural malady that should be abrogated from nature.(2)

1. It is possible I am grossly ignorant of the nuances of Buddhist, Jainist, and other associated belief systems.

2. That is not to say I am in favor of anyone being forcibly removed from existing, only that the idea of essentially breeding ourselves gradually out of existence is not the worst possible future I can imagine.

On another note of far-flung transhumanism, something I never really see discussed alongside stuff like AGI and mind-uploading is hypothetically being able to use such technology to FIX consciousness, and maybe repair us to such a degree that the way we actually are resembles what our intuitions would have us believe we are. I'm not sure how clear that is, now that I've typed it. I wonder what conscious existence of that sort would even be like. It might just be too paradoxical to both science and philosophy to even be able to discuss, though.
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 09-25-2015, 06:16 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #44   CupcakeDolly CupcakeDolly is offline
Wayward Victorian Doll
It looks like I'm a little late to the party on this one, buuut...

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1. What religions do you find to be strange?
All of them. I understand the concept of most, and the general need for a sense of community, creating a purpose for oneself, and having someone to credit/blame for the creation of existence. What I find strange is that all of these people choose to put labels on themselves and nitpick about the specifics of their deities instead of realizing that they're all really just striving for the same thing.
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2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?
The religion of... Keeping it cool, I guess? It's fun to speculate about a higher being, but the very nature of such a thing would prevent us from fully understanding it anyway. Without going into too much detail, there are issues much closer to home that I'm more concerned with.
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3. Do you believe that there is a true path?
Reason, respect, empathy, and always striving to be better than you are without bringing anyone else down along the way. Granted, my actions don't always reflect those ideals, but...... shut up.
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4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?
Seemingly everything.
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5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?
Sort of, in the same way that I'm be interested in reading fairy tales. In most places the bible reads like a longer, more fiery version of Aesop's Fables with a lot of recurring characters, so that's pretty fun.
Old Posted 10-07-2015, 02:06 AM Reply With Quote  
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