[Taiki]

Ahh I know this will be considered Necroing but I really want to a part of this conversation.

I joined Syndrone but I will NEVER donate money to them. People on that team have started at least 4 other avi sites that they have given away or let die so I won't trust them. The team keeps changing but I believe there's a couple of people that stay the same and they started Chloria, Elidiun, Terrasus, and now Syndrone. Terrasus only lasted a few months. I don't know how true this is but I've hear that most of those people are like 17 years old so they don't know anything about running a business.

I've even noticed that Chloria and Ernya have posted things about needing more donations to survive.

As for avi sites dying. I believe it's a bunch of things, not so much people losing interest. People do lose interest but those sites usually don't do any advertising so they won't get new users to replace the ones that leave. Plus most sites don't innovate and just copy what Gaia does. Just because they have a different "theme" than other avi sites doesn't mean they are necessarily different. Being stagnant, even if you're releasing items on time every month (donation items and commons) and having basic events... if you do nothing more than that, people will still lose interest. Avi sites need to step up their game if they want to survive but since most don't make a lot of money, I don't see that happening.

They need to have more to do than just post and some games. Look at Gaia, they build all kinds of things; Towns, Fish Tanks, Puzzles, MMO, etc. Just think outside of the box. I've seen people mention it on here before, but a card game specific to the site would be awesome. Especially if those cards were somehow in part of your inventory and could obtained in a variety of ways, Au bought, Rune bought, prizes from events. Like actual collecting of cards that you could play against an AI or other people. People love card games don't they? xD Though that would take money to develop the system and art for the cards.

The most important thing I think is innovation. You must make yourself stand above the rest with actual UNIQUE features, not your own take on features everyone else already has.

[Nexess]

^ I seriously want to say WHAT SHE SAID!

But it is true, alot of sites, Tris is one of them too, aren't really coming up with new and exciting features for their sites. Alot of people complain that everyone is "copying Gaia". That's basically true. Gaia was the first long lasting Avatar site and it's because they didn't pussy out and just do monthly DI's and events, they made their site bigger and better, they didn't want to stay tiny so they did something about it!

And I believe alot of sites lack that. Those that ask for money are just trying to keep it afloat, they're not even asking for resources to make the site bigger, they just need it to keep it alive. Which is sad, but true.

[Taiki]

Exactly! It's sad when I see avi sites asking for money but it makes me wonder how they spend the money they do get and if the people who own the site have an outside job that they use to invest money in. I remember a long time ago Solia was looking for new ways to make money because the people that owned it didn't want to get day jobs. What. I understand you want to make your site into a business but your personal needs should already be taken care of before using site money, unless the site is making a ton of money that can both support you and the site easily. That makes me wonder if that's why avi sites don't have money to develop new features.

I think a lot of people start avi sites for the wrong reasons and have the wrong impression of what it means to start a business. Or rather, they don't even think of it as a business. They think it'll be easy and just do what other sites do but "their own way". A lot of these smaller sites that have failed started their site out of hatred for other sites. "This site will be better than so and so! We'll do what the users want, etc, etc" is what I tend to see but I don't think they fully understand what that means.

If you started a business and sold the same things as everyone else but in different packaging, it'll be hard to stand out and create a loyal fan base. What sets good sites apart is creating things other sites have never thought of. I thought it was so weird when Gaia introduced the fish tank thing... but as long as there are people that enjoy it, then it was a success. Sites shouldn't be so scared to try new things.

[littl3chocobo]

on the other hand, and yes you already brought this up but it needs saying again, gaia /has/ the money and dev team to make these innovative things, that simply is not the case for most other sites especially ones where the team that /is/ there are also trying to hold jobs and have lives. it's a catch-22 that is tipped only with luck or serious outside help. gaia had the advantage of timing to it's benefit, it came out when the internet was only just starting to look 'pretty' and young users were starting to be able to handle money, these users see a nice safe place with really nice graphics and not many other places to go and they stayed

[Poggio]

I agree with the business aspect. A lot of people now adays do not take in to account a lot of things that make one run. Being that I work at a craft store I talk to a lot of people that run their own businesses from Artist to chocolateteers, freelancers or just people that sell their cards on Etsy. From what I understand about business, its about your client base and what your product is. There is alot of investing that goes in a business and I think a lot of smaller sites neglect a few things. One that is to know who you are doing business with. I know never to go into business with my friends, unless I know they are all good with money and ideas with an excellent work ethic. They are not.

Two marketing. I think where tris went wrong was not having something identifiable other then the layering system and pg 17 content allowance. If I say Oliver or Gambino people who traffic those sites know who I am talking about. Right now other then Sebastian I am not sure the regular users know who the npcs are. Though I know a lot of thought as been put into Trisphees story line. It doesn't help that the site changes staffers frequently. The new ones have to be caught up to date quickly on the complex story line. But from a business aspect that limits the icons that trisphee can make marketable. I mean I can't cosplay as Zypher at a con and have people immediately identify me.

Marketing is not always about buying an Ad. I mean how often do we post on the Trisphee Facebook? Is the Facebook part of other networks, lets say if we like another site and we asked that site to like us in return? Is it possible for us to be a part of DA groups? Etc etc.
Edit: To me marketing is about networking. That is the long and short of it. It is too bad that many smaller sites are protective about their user base and users on say Roliana can not direct link to here and back and forth.


It is not just Tris that had this problem. I didn't really know who the npcs were on Crysandrea either and I can't see myself getting involved in another avatar website where I have to post and start from the beginning all over again. So I will not be joining places like Royal Creed and Syndrome. I have no heart for Midorea as well and that one at least has a battle system.

And if Kids really are the ones running the sites then I have a theory on that as well. It is my opinion kids today have no real value of money. I am not much out of the generaion gap but everything I own in life it is because I had to work for it. I couldn't just start a project and abandon it with out consequences and loosing the money I invested into it. I have also throughly investigated any project I know I want to take part in. For example I know if I want to run an Etsy, I know the cost of maintaing the images, doing the product I want to sell. How much it will cost me to print business cards to get traffic to my site. What my state sales tax is and that if I make over a certain amount I expect to pay 15% in federal taxes. I do not have to ask my parents for 100 dollars to do this, and if I fail its my own 100 dollars failing. A lot of youths to me do not know this. I watch them push buttons on their iPhones and spend about 50 dollars of their parents disposable income with a swipe of a pastic card just so their parents wont have to deal with them.

How can I expect some one that easily thinks money can from their parents to want to make money by making my site work?

[Taiki]

I completely agree with your entire post Poggio but I'm gonna quote a few things that I want to talk about from it.

Originally Posted by Poggio

I know never to go into business with my friends, unless I know they are all good with money and ideas with an excellent work ethic. They are not.

This is the main reason that group of people keep failing I feel like. From the trail of information that I've read about them in the past year, Syndrone has already changed ownership and it's been open for like half a year. Yet THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. I have friends that I would never hire if I owned a business. Just because someone is your friend does not mean they will make a good business partner.

Originally Posted by Poggio

Two marketing. I think where tris went wrong was not having something identifiable other then the layering system and pg 17 content allowance... It doesn't help that the site changes staffers frequently. The new ones have to be caught up to date quickly on the complex story line. But from a business aspect that limits the icons that trisphee can make marketable. I mean I can't cosplay as Zypher at a con and have people immediately identify me.

As a webcomic creator, I know how important this is. There is no one way to market yourself. Every comic is different and different methods of marketing will work for different people. The same goes for avatar sites. Knowing your strengths is hard to gauge but can be rewarding. Having popular characters that you really push creates brand loyalty. Like on Gaia, my favorite NPC was Moira. When they had town events, whatever team she was on, I'd be there! No matter what. And when Gaia had their merchandise store... I bought Moira things! A keychain, stickers, even a Durem shirt. Trisphee needs to tone it down and really focus on bringing a small group of NPCs into the limelight so users can get to know them. And I'm pretty sure I've seen an admin mention that they were planning on doing this soon which is a good start.

As for staff changing a lot... sometimes I wonder if that has to do with the first thing I pointed out from your post. Do staff members get hired on constantly because they are friends? Then they're less likely to do actual work because they didn't get hired for work ethic. I'm not saying Tris does this, I'm just pointing it out. I'm pretty sure the smaller avi sites tend to do that which creates staff Cliques.

Originally Posted by Poggio

And if Kids really are the ones running the sites then I have a theory on that as well. It is my opinion kids today have no real value of money. I am not much out of the generaion gap but everything I own in life it is because I had to work for it. I couldn't just start a project and abandon it with out consequences and loosing the money I invested into it.
How can I expect some one that easily thinks money can from their parents to want to make money by making my site work?

This! I think that after the initial rush to be a part of the opening of the site wears off and there is less activity, maybe they panic and jump ship on the site. Though, if I spent thousands of dollars of hard earned money on making a site, I would try to fix what was wrong with it before running off to start a new one.

[Poggio]

Originally Posted by Taiki

As for staff changing a lot... sometimes I wonder if that has to do with the first thing I pointed out from your post. Do staff members get hired on constantly because they are friends? Then they're less likely to do actual work because they didn't get hired for work ethic. I'm not saying Tris does this, I'm just pointing it out. I'm pretty sure the smaller avi sites tend to do that which creates staff Cliques.

Hehe, yeah one of my friends was on staff and she was too ADD to actually get more then a few items pixeled. Thats the sort of thing I would never hire. I love the girl to bits too but damn xD she was so loopy. I just personally hate having money issues between my friends and I. Money always makes things ten times worse and realistically thinking about it only one of my friends I am okay with sharing money with because we both keep each other in check and can manage.

u.u For the most part, I think Tris has a different story. Because its older users that can not live with out having a life they tend to have things that get in the way, such as being employed. And there are no back up plans for when this happens to a staffer, like we don't really have a training program in place for pixelist in case one drops out, nor do we have writers and coders who are on the up and up. Where as Ernya probably has a slue of people through their monthly contest where if they are good enough they can possibly approach as a new pixelist.

Originally Posted by Taiki

This! I think that after the initial rush to be a part of the opening of the site wears off and there is less activity, maybe they panic and jump ship on the site. Though, if I spent thousands of dollars of hard earned money on making a site, I would try to fix what was wrong with it before running off to start a new one.

I have to be honest, I was on manahaven when something like this happened. Rather then trying to fix the battle system or fix the glitches on the threads, find more artist to make items and sprites the owner just kinda said yeah, this site has already eaten up a lot of my money so Imma just stop it. It didn't make it past Beta. It really bummed me out. I mean Zomg wasn't coded in a day and I am sure if the owner spent time with the glitches and his development team it could have worked.

xD Random side note but I was a Gambino/Edward girl <3

[Taiki]

Originally Posted by Poggio

Where as Ernya probably has a slue of people through their monthly contest where if they are good enough they can possibly approach as a new pixelist.

What kind of monthly contest is that? Pixeling contest or just designing stuff? I don't usually go on Ernya so I have no idea. O:

Originally Posted by Poggio

I have to be honest, I was on manahaven when something like this happened. Rather then trying to fix the battle system or fix the glitches on the threads, find more artist to make items and sprites the owner just kinda said yeah, this site has already eaten up a lot of my money so Imma just stop it. It didn't make it past Beta. It really bummed me out. I mean Zomg wasn't coded in a day and I am sure if the owner spent time with the glitches and his development team it could have worked.

Is that what happened to manahaven? I joined and was active for like a week or two and when I went back it was gone! That's really sad when that happens. I've seen A LOT of avi site progress blogs that just stop updating. Whether it's from lack of finances or loss of interest. It's kind of sad. It helps if the person who wants to run the site is talented at Coding. I feel like it's much easier to get artists than developers and probably cheaper so if the owner can code and makes the site them self, it puts them ahead of the game.

Also I think sites like that should have a working prototype of the site/game before accepting Betas. It's really annoying to join a "Beta Avatar Site" that is just a basic forum and it seems like 90% of them don't get past that stage. I don't think they know how much money would go into starting something like that. I never have but I would assume that it would cost at least $2,000+ unless everyone involved is doing it for free but even then you have to pay for the domain/server/web hosting.

@ littl3chocobo, sorry I missed your post! I agree with what you said about Gaia. And plus I think the people who started it were all able to participate in all aspects of it's creation for "free" so they didn't have to initially pay for a lot of things. From what I've read on their Wiki, apparently they ran their own server in their house too! And Catch-22 is definitely the best way to describe a lot of avatar site failures.

[littl3chocobo]

man, i tried running a site off of a house server for a while this last spring XD had to stop after some flooding and a frazzled. but yeah, it is cheaper to run a site by far from home but the cost of creation is mostly dependent on how much you can do from scratch and if you can find people, getting a coder to work for free is the biggest part and cuts out the bulk of the expenses but that is still 10-50 a month to run the site named, however much you paid for the actual code you are using to make your site(i've seen it sell for around 200 dollars for something firmly established), the cost of your pixelist and if you go that route the cost of your materials(such as theme and bases and games) and of course the server-cost which, for imageheavy sites, isn't the same thing as your domain and can be managed by buying it from a company or setting it up yourself

i know because we are doing everything from scratch that i can run a basic forum-based site for 18 a month and it will only double when i implement a proper avatar system(it's currently a non-saving dropdown thing but it's small enough to not take up any notable space)



sorry if any of that is weird or confusing, i am tired XD

[Taiki]

Oh you're starting an avatar site too? Be sure to read this thread thoroughly so that you can avoid the mistakes of other sites. xD You should PM me when you get into beta testing so I can check it out. ;D


Also did some looking into LunaeSaga. I had never heard of it before. It seems like it only lasted a year? I completely missed it. It's sad to see sites go down because it makes it harder for other sites to keep the trust of the users. If a bunch of sites close down that someone has spent money on, they may not want to contribute to other sites in the future. :[

[Daenerys Targaryen]

I am new to this site, actually just joined. I've been on a few other avatar based forums. Gaia, Roliana, Solia, Ernya, Unifaction, etc. So far, the best one I've seen in Solia. I decided to join a new one just for a new group of people.

I was actually just trying to visit some of the sites you suggested, and many of them were shut down or up for sale. It sucks when sites like these shut down, especially when they're really good.

[Taiki]

I agree, I hate it when ones that I like close down. :[ Though I have seen an interesting effect where when 1 site closes down, 2 more seem to spring up from the ashes of it. xD; That really proves my point that it's more the staff that leads to the site closing than the fact that it's an avi site in general. The staff seem to bicker and go separate ways and build more sites out of hatred for the previous one.

[Ashy]

Originally Posted by Taiki

What kind of monthly contest is that? Pixeling contest or just designing stuff? I don't usually go on Ernya so I have no idea. O:

Isn't that what design/pixels contests are for though, to scout out potential artists? Although usually you don't make it as obvious as that xD

[littl3chocobo]

it won't even be into closed beta by this time next year, i want a site that is 'ready' before i let the users come in and wear out all of the 'new' on it X''D that means i am going to give it at least two years of alpha-testing love before i set it free to the public though it is going to be an rp-centric avatar community so it probs won't be up your ally anyway

[Taiki]

@ Ashy, oh how sneaky!! ;P

@ littl3chocobo, Who says I don't like RPing? =P I used to RP all the time when I first joined Gaia. I'm just not very good at it so I don't tend to do it. xD And about your site... at least you're being responsible about it. Syndrone bothers me because they claim the site is in Alpha testing but they are selling monthly donation items and stuff as if it were fully open. I dunno but I think the point that you start selling monthly items means you're open. Maybe that's just me?

[littl3chocobo]

dude, syndrone is also advertising and is trying to get a radiostation established. does not help they are a redo of another site(am i wrong to say it was lunae?) that shut down, they are bum-rushing everything and only /just/ got their inventories set up to be used >x>;;;;