[MyPerfectPigeon]

By weird, I'm only referring to newer religions that you may not understand or are just a bit strange from your perspective.

I myself am part of a religion people may consider to be weird, so I'd like to get everyone's thoughts.
Please answer the following questions and add anything else you'd like.

1. What religions do you find to be strange?
2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?
3. Do you believe that there is a true path?
4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?
5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

Please be respectful. If anyone has questions about another's answers do not talk in absolutes, but ask why they think that way.
Thank you!

(I hope this is the right place)

[Lawtan]

I think there is a possible section for this...or if not it has come up in the Pagan Inn...can't remember...

To answer your question

1) I am not as certain about religion as being weird as how certain faiths are interpreted to generate weird cultures and reactions...Animistic faiths can range from "eat your enemy to mix their spirit with yours" to "try not to kill the bacteria when you breathe." I admit, I have less pursued modern religions, as I aim to study their origins and older interpretations. For example, The majority interpretation of Christianity in Europe changed 4+ times over Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.


2) Sort of a mix of things - Eclectic...range from Nihilistic Absurdism to Pantheistic Paganism/Animism. I guess you can say my religion is that which allows me to appreciate culture and religion, while giving a sense of value and connection to the physical world around me. (And allow for some humor)


3) Not really. Seeing as how most "this is the one right way to go" strategies tend to generate war, bigotry, and poverty-related things. Sort of try promote the ideal of a variety of ideals...though that is a headache...


4) Can't really answer as I was too specivague (so specific that I became vague)...sorry...


5) I am studying them greatly, along with general culture. Hoping to add studies of dance, language, technology, and art/architecture to them eventually...slow process. Look at the Mythology/Culture tabs in my Library.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

1. What religions do you find to be strange?

In the sense that religion is merely the most visible self-deception of the human mind to blind ourselves from the brutality of the universe we exist in, none. Religion is a perfectly natural outgrowth of the mind's tendency to sequester itself from the more troubling aspects of being self-aware. Far from being unique in this regard, though, religion is merely the most dramatic externalization of the sort of lies we all tell ourselves to get through the day, from the micro- to the macrocosmic. Even the act of writing this post is a willing act of self-deluding distraction on my own part, for instance, from the fact that I am the imaginary, vestigial projection of the bio-electrical processes of a chunk of cerebral meat over which I have no control, taking post-hoc credit for the (non-)decisions it makes, all in a cosmos of decaying molecules undergoing a Godlike process of non-consensual suicide.

2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?

I am as hard-line an atheist as you can possibly get. I am also a helpless pessimist and an avowed Antinatalist. I hold the position that the evolution of human self-awareness was the single most atrocious thing to ever happen in the history of the universe, and that it is a crime beyond reckoning to willfully create new sentient beings. (And I do feel the need to stress here, the distinction between being pro-nonexistence and pro-death, I am in favor of minimizing the suffering and maximizing the joy of every person currently burdened with being alive, and extending those lives as long as possible, I simply reject the proposition that creating new humans does anyone any good, least of all the person created. While having no wish to die (due to the cocktail of neuroses and reptile instincts evolution has imprinted on me), I very much wish I had never been born in the first place, if the distinction is at all clear.)

3. Do you believe that there is a true path?

To paraphrase someone smarter than myself, "The only inalienable right any human is born with is the right to die, not necessarily at a time of their choosing". The only "truth" is that we're all dancing at the blind machinations of our subconscious to perpetuate the greatest, most meaningless tragedy the cosmos has ever seen. We're a living museum to the paradox of evolution: by defeating and transcending nature, we've become enemies of nature, but we're hopelessly tethered to a natural existence we can never escape. We're the victims of a useless mutation which serves only the produce the greatest possible sum of suffering, and the more we fight our wretched state of being, the worse it hurts.

4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?

An irrelevant question.

5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

As a distraction, it's as valid an avenue as any other. I'd venture I know more about most religions than is average, but it's not something I hold any particular fondness for studying (as much as one can hold the illusion of fondness under the constant pressure of the Thanatos-instinct...)


But that's just, like, my opinion.

(Oh, and in terms of fringe philosophies, I'm well aware this is quite possibly the most alienating mindset one can possibly put forth. I've never had any interest in trying to convince anyone to believe the same.)

[Demonskid]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

I think there is a possible section for this...or if not it has come up in the Pagan Inn...can't remember...

when I was a mod, religious anything really belonged in Life Styles and Issues. religion is a life style and such so, yea. But that was when I was a mod, it's been over 2 years now I think.

and as I don't have a religion, I won't be answering questions. ^^, I was just curious on if an interesting religion has popped up. I like reading on new things in case some one at my work place happens to be that. easier to be under standing if you know something about something

[Quiet Man Cometh]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

By weird, I'm only referring to newer religions that you may not understand or are just a bit strange from your perspective.

Why? No really, why just newer ones? I figure any of them can be weird depending on perspective. Tradition might only make it seem less so.

I myself am part of a religion people may consider to be weird, so I'd like to get everyone's thoughts.
Please answer the following questions and add anything else you'd like.

1. What religions do you find to be strange?

I wouldn't say any of them are any stranger than the other, it depends on the perspective.

2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?

None, though I suppose by default, geographical location, and familial traditions, I have some Christian leanings. The family was Anglican at some point.

3. Do you believe that there is a true path?

Nope!

4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?

Not sure how to answer this, since I don't really know much about more than one religion to really give a good comparison. I suppose the major difference between myself and some religions is that I'm immediately suspicious of anything claiming to be a holy book or word of god or any sort of life-time "how-to." I'm a gut feeling type, or might go for a well made argument.

5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

sure, in the sense of theology or myth study, but not as any sort of actual system of belief. I have the mind-set I have and if I happen to agree with a particular teaching, then I can agree with it, but that doesn't make me of that religion.

[Salone]

First off, I would like to say welcome to the site! Good show engaging in serious discussion.

1. What religions do you find to be strange?

As long as 'strange' is the word we're going with here, I'm going to say 'most of them' however, if we're putting them on a measurable scale, I'm going to have to say Scientology is definitely topping the charts, as well as various versions of your newer Paganism, Wicca and the Esoteric Order of Dagon. One of those might not be real.

2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?

Pretty sure I'm agnostic, with leanings of atheism. When I was younger I was of Pentacostal denomination of Christianity, although looking at my behavior I only thought I was one, I didn't follow a lot of the practices and way of life that is required by most. I suppose you could say a lot of people do that with their religions. Anyway.

I was hateful. I was a bigot because it was fun and validating to hate, I was backed (supposedly) by my book (that I never actually read) and my congregation. I told one of the few people I grew up with that he was going to Hell for being gay. I am no longer that person, and I have apologized profusely, but I can't ever get over my guilt. But part of what swayed me away were just various events in my life and a slow realization that what little I did know of my own religion seemed very contradictory. Not to mention that the whole "speaking in tongues" thing never seemed to take me and I just ad libbed it to keep pressure off of me during services. So I slowly went my own way. I tried to make up for the things I had done and said. And now, I'm undecided. It might be a weak stance, but I don't know what's out there, or what I believe, but I'm okay with not knowing. Organized religions do shirk me though, the idea of congregations being lead by priests/imams/whatever supposedly speaking the will of their religion gives me the creeps now. Nothing wrong with other people doing it, but I don't think it's for me.

3. Do you believe that there is a true path?

All hail the Great Potato! Also congrats on finding this.
Nah. In the words of one Sam Vimes, the three basic needs of any animal is to eat, mate, and crap. Somewhere along the line we had enough time to come up with a fourth and fifth and so on, and one of them happened to be the need to explain why we're here and religion fell in to that need. So it's whatever gives you peace of mind while you're here to me. Walk you're path, so long as you're tripping me on mine. Although if I had to choose, the only one true path is the one to the fridge.

4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?

Pffft well I don't believe that Xanu or Xanadu or Xenu is going to come back for me once I get my thetans in check, for one. So far I have yet to see a Wiccan successfully cast a spell or alter anything in a quantifiable way without directly manipulating it, so I guess we're not so different there, although belief wise we're on opposite sides. I mean once they do I had better get my letter telling me I am accepted to the Salem Witches Institute (Hogwarts is for English students, Americans go here!). Also, my religion of nothing directly contrasts with the machinations of Dagon, and I have yet to hear the callings to the deep water and Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. We stand opposed on that subject.

5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

Maybe as a side hobby, but it's going to be fairly low on the list. I'm just disinterested unless there's some colorful history that does not involve murdering too many people in the name of somebody. That said, my greatest scholarly knowledge on a religion is probably Omnianism. I will read about some Omnianism.

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

I think there is a possible section for this...or if not it has come up in the Pagan Inn...can't remember...

To answer your question

1) I am not as certain about religion as being weird as how certain faiths are interpreted to generate weird cultures and reactions...Animistic faiths can range from "eat your enemy to mix their spirit with yours" to "try not to kill the bacteria when you breathe." I admit, I have less pursued modern religions, as I aim to study their origins and older interpretations. For example, The majority interpretation of Christianity in Europe changed 4+ times over Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.
2) Sort of a mix of things - Eclectic...range from Nihilistic Absurdism to Pantheistic Paganism/Animism. I guess you can say my religion is that which allows me to appreciate culture and religion, while giving a sense of value and connection to the physical world around me. (And allow for some humor)
3) Not really. Seeing as how most "this is the one right way to go" strategies tend to generate war, bigotry, and poverty-related things. Sort of try promote the ideal of a variety of ideals...though that is a headache...
4) Can't really answer as I was too specivague (so specific that I became vague)...sorry...
5) I am studying them greatly, along with general culture. Hoping to add studies of dance, language, technology, and art/architecture to them eventually...slow process. Look at the Mythology/Culture tabs in my Library.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions! I'm glad someone else likes to study religion as well :) Hinduism and Havism both focus on the point that everyone has their own truths and that there is no right way since it differs per perspective.
I do know of animism, but what is absurdism? Could you tell me more about your beliefs? I'd love to hear about them :)

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Suzerain of Sheol

But that's just, like, my opinion.

(Oh, and in terms of fringe philosophies, I'm well aware this is quite possibly the most alienating mindset one can possibly put forth. I've never had any interest in trying to convince anyone to believe the same.)

I'm just quoting this last bit because it's a long response! I thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I've never met anyone that thinks quite in the same way you do.

I would like to ask you a few questions to get a bit more clarity on your beliefs and ideals.

as you probably are aware, cetaceans are sentient beings. Do you think they fair better or worse than humanity? They have the same level of self-awareness, so I am curious of what you think of them in comparison.
another question is what do you think about mental disorders? I know they occur in almost all animals, so I am curious what your opinion is on them in comparison to self-awareness (if that makes sense)?

although I personally am not a fan of being negative, I tend to think rather negatively myself. You said you know a lot about most religions. I am wondering if you mean religion as a whole or specific religions?
I'm asking this because I am wondering what your opinion is on religions that tend to support scientific explanations on the reasons we think and feel and exist, but try to (attempt anyway) form a community in which we can openly speak with one another as human beings?

Your answer was very interesting to read for me. Thank you once again for responding!

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Demonskid

when I was a mod, religious anything really belonged in Life Styles and Issues. religion is a life style and such so, yea. But that was when I was a mod, it's been over 2 years now I think.

and as I don't have a religion, I won't be answering questions. ^^, I was just curious on if an interesting religion has popped up. I like reading on new things in case some one at my work place happens to be that. easier to be under standing if you know something about something

This is my first post, so I had no idea where to put it! I took a guess, sorry if it's in a bad location, but I'll remember for next time.

also, since you are interested in unusual religions, do you know of Havism, Scientology, or Jediism?

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh

Why? No really, why just newer ones? I figure any of them can be weird depending on perspective. Tradition might only make it seem less so.

Well, it could be older religions too. The only actual motivation I had for asking of new religions is because I myself am apart of a new religion.

and don't worry, the only way you can conform to a religion (even if you agree with all their beliefs) is by converting or declaring yourself as a member of that faith :)
It's a little annoying when one talks about their beliefs and are labelled almost immediately.

[MyPerfectPigeon]

Originally Posted by Salone

Maybe as a side hobby, but it's going to be fairly low on the list. I'm just disinterested unless there's some colorful history that does not involve murdering too many people in the name of somebody. That said, my greatest scholarly knowledge on a religion is probably Omnianism. I will read about some Omnianism.

Thank you kindly, dear, and thank you a load for taking the time to answer my questions! I hope to enjoy my time here :)
What's the Esoteric Order of Dagon? I've never heard of it! I definitely consider Scientology the stranger ones only because I don't really get how people get into it in the first place.

I'm glad you've become a better person in the long run and yes, all hail the great potato!

I definitely have conflicting views on some of the more spiritual religions, but I do like religions that are very open and accepting. also religions that do support science.

I've never heard of Omianism. What is that? :o

[Lawtan]

(As a side note, other than at the start of a thread, it is generally frowned upon to post multiple times back-to-back)

I think the Esoteric Order of Dagon was meant as a joke, unless Lovecraftian cults nowadays exist. Scientology is to my understanding the perfect blend of "cult brainwash behavior" and "religion"...to rather negative degree (in the "we will financially ruin and potentially kidnap members who leave" sense)

Well, you can sort of say that Absurdism is, to me, the closest answer to the problem posed by Nietzsche (in which he was concerned with the nihilistic attitude and its harm to humanity being able to move forward and live)...in that it ignores the question of morality and god in favor of the central reason for asking such questions - why should we live, and favor life?
Camus, in his Myth of Sisyphus, illustrates how knowledge/religion/joy/etc. are possibly pointless (we lack the ability to ascertain if there is a point), but our struggles and variety of ideas do sometimes have positive benefits, and though nothing may be true or of value, by pursuing the goals, we spit in the face of the cruel situation we are born in, and act as the Greek Sisyphus, always trying to push the boulder up Hade's cursed hill. A sort of tragic, but admirably determined, hero.

Jediism is a bit odd, admittedly...but haven't observed it that much, so I don't know much about it.

The Hermetic Order and the like are interesting, as is Alchemy and its derivatives. The form and changes in Ancient Egyptian mythology, Shinto, and Ojibwe beliefs are interesting. I haven't gotten far into the Ancient Inca mythos, though how their strict gender-caste formation came about is a good model for why so many societies are set up like that (in that strict gender roles are due to trying to establish and justify a central inheritance system of power across disjointed matrilineal and patrilineal tribe lineages).

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

as you probably are aware, cetaceans are sentient beings. Do you think they fair better or worse than humanity? They have the same level of self-awareness, so I am curious of what you think of them in comparison.

I do remember hearing about the findings on this several years ago, I'm not entirely sure there's enough available data (from what I've seen) to be able to say on anything definitive on the matter. The human variant of self-consciousness comes with an intractable narcissism and self-aggrandizement, a constant desire to separate or elevate ourselves from the rest of the natural world, which in my view is the cause of the majority of our existential dysphoria. I would be willing to concede that the possibility exists for self-consciousness in other creatures lacking the characteristics that shackle the human mind to its fundamental state of misery. I find the idea of non-conscious intelligence rather intriguing as well; I don't believe in extra-terrestrial visitations, but if somehow space-faring alien lifeforms did arrive here, it would be very interesting to see if they possessed the same sense of self-awareness that humans do. Artificial intelligence, as well, may be able to shed light on this subject. (I'm something of a trans-humanist advocate as well, I think the best possible future for humanity would be essentially the inverse of the Matrix films: mind-uploading into personal digital universes that exist only to maximize the happiness of the person experiencing them. But that's speaking purely ideally. Eliminating biological mortality through medical science seems a much more plausible endeavor, at least in the short term.)

another question is what do you think about mental disorders? I know they occur in almost all animals, so I am curious what your opinion is on them in comparison to self-awareness (if that makes sense)?

I think in a way I'd define human consciousness itself as a mental disorder. It's a difficult subject to think about, as it's kind of abstract, but the experiences I've had on certain drugs seem to indicate that self-consciousness is pretty unnecessary to everything else about human functioning. I've had coherent conversations that were running completely off my sub-conscious, more or less, but I wouldn't take that as any kind of conclusive evidence, objectively, given the way the sub-conscious is directly tied to the conscious, let alone the complexity of memory-formation and the emergent quality of the personality.

I guess to answer your question, though, I consider mental illnesses something parallel to the conscious mind. Even if they manifest on the level of awareness, the root of them is in the physiology of the brain, but again, in certain cases, it seems almost impossible to distinguish the two.

although I personally am not a fan of being negative, I tend to think rather negatively myself. You said you know a lot about most religions. I am wondering if you mean religion as a whole or specific religions?
I'm asking this because I am wondering what your opinion is on religions that tend to support scientific explanations on the reasons we think and feel and exist, but try to (attempt anyway) form a community in which we can openly speak with one another as human beings?

Oh, I merely meant that in the course of my education I've been exposed to the details of quite of few religions (I have my degree in English literature and took quite a few philosophy courses along the way), though primarily the Judaic monotheisms and the various ancient paganisms of Europe and around the Mediterranean. I don't tend to read much about modern religions.

As to the second part, I'd say my original answer still holds. If we've evolved socially/culturally to flee from existential despair by drowning it out with more immediate concerns or by compartmentalizing our place in the cosmos, it really doesn't matter what shape that takes, religion or otherwise. It really comes down to whatever works for the individual(s).

Your answer was very interesting to read for me. Thank you once again for responding!

You're welcome. I hope my responses aren't too off-putting. As you may be able to imagine, I'm quite used to these ideas being met with hostility, so I appreciate you taking them in the spirit they're meant.

[Suzerain of Sheol]

Originally Posted by Lawtan

(As a side note, other than at the start of a thread, it is generally frowned upon to post multiple times back-to-back)

I hereby revoke the contractio frontis generalis of this thread. Given the length of the replies, it's entirely reasonable to allow the OP to separate them into multiple posts. It's not like they're spamming meaningless drivel for extra Aurum.

Oh, look, I just double-posted! Rogue admin on the loose! Somebody stop it!

[Gallagher]

oh my GOD Suze, read the RULES for once in your life. This is why you'll never get to be a robot!

Pigeon, the rule is actually that you shouldn't post three or more times in a row, but, as Suze suggests, it's not the most horrible omg-we're-gonna-ban-you rule.

... Moving on, I wanna be part of the fun! Let's answer some questions!

What religions do you find to be strange?

Not many. More than anything else, I find individual interpretations of religions to be strange, as those are where things get a little wonky. Or rather, interpretations that are passed on through congregational or familial teachings instead of personal interest and study, as these usually have the intent of supporting a way of thinking whether or not the base religion they claim to follow agrees with them.

What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?

I'm a Jehovah's Witness, but I dislike group meetings, so it's like... minus the door-to-door, 3 meetings a week, and fear of shunning. The first just because I'm lazy, but for those wondering, it does have good intentions. Many claim that the shunning does as well, but I don't believe it, as it is far too reminiscent of the fear mongering that made the belief in Hell and eternal damnation catch on in the first place. I don't believe in either of those, FYI.

Do you believe that there is a true path?

I believe that the loving God I put my faith in will realize how flawed humans are and give us all a chance to see the truth for ourselves, instead of judging us for not following a specifically warped version of his teachings. So, if I'm wrong, I don't want to follow a cruel God to begin with. I'll accept my punishment. Or I won't know any better because death! Yay!

What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?

People too lazy to study the religions they claim to follow, or to learn about the ones that others follow, more often than not are nothing more than animals. The kinds of animals that will form an angry mob at the slightest discontent or danger. If you're fine behaving like that, then that's on you. Humans have the capability to look deeper into themselves and the world around them, and should take full advantage of that ability. To not do so is to lock away part of your humanity itself. If you don't believe in any sort of God, or many of them, that's fine, too. EVEN IF YOU THINK HUMAN SELF-AWARENESS IS LITERALLY THE WORST. But never stop learning.

Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

I think anyone truly disinterested is unlikely to post in this thread, let alone answer your questions.

[Salone]

Originally Posted by MyPerfectPigeon

Thank you kindly, dear, and thank you a load for taking the time to answer my questions! I hope to enjoy my time here :)
What's the Esoteric Order of Dagon? I've never heard of it! I definitely consider Scientology the stranger ones only because I don't really get how people get into it in the first place.

I'm glad you've become a better person in the long run and yes, all hail the great potato!

I definitely have conflicting views on some of the more spiritual religions, but I do like religions that are very open and accepting. also religions that do support science.

I've never heard of Omianism. What is that? :o

As mentioned by Lawtan, the Esoteric Order of Dagon is the entirely fictional cult from Lovecraft's works, although they have a little piece on how it overthrew Christianity in a town in the story "Shadow Over Innsmouth" that is a nice little read.

I would be okay with a religious backing of science. So long as I don't have to give up my hedonistic lifestyle and dubious morality on various matters.

And sadly, Omnianism is also a fictional religion set in the Discworld universe, first being detailed in the book Small Gods. A quick run through on the religion can be found below, and I cannot recommend the book enough.

Omnianism centers around the worship and praise of the great and terrible god Om, who decrees that he created the world and everything in it and that he is the only god, contrary to the proof of multiple gods existing in the Discworld and that it was created long before him. Omnianism has regularly scheduled prophets that make pilgrimages into the desert to consult with Om. The religion itself is the state religion of Omnia, and the country is fiercely dedicated and spreads its religion by sword point to its neighbors. Om himself was selfish and indifferent to his believers' wishes and desires, and was quick to anger and to smite people. It is later discovered that most of the prophets never actually spoke to Om, but wrote the commandments of what they thought he would want (you know, what they desired). This lead to commandments against singing (except for praising Om), alcohol, and pretty much anything else that could be a sin, including fruits on holy days and such, and gave vindication for killing those who did not follow the will of Om. Omnianism also has the Quisition, holy agents who torture others 'for the good of Omnianism' and to root out those who would spread lies and falsehoods about Om (the truth actually).

More information below, but spoilers on the actual book are mentioned.

In Small Gods, the followers of Omnianism believe more in the structure of their religion than their actual religion, and the lack of actual belief in Om reduces him in power, to the point that entering the mortal realm leaves him only enough power to take the form of a small tortoise instead of the mighty raging bull he had desired to be. He is discovered by his last true believer, a boy who has fanatical worship of Om. Om is at first hateful and commands plagues and pestilences against those who do not immediately run to his aid ("Your sexual organs to sprout wings and fly away" is a pretty good one). However, the only person who can hear him is the boy, since he is the only believer. To make things worse, the boy is fairly thick and refuses to believe that this tortoise is Om, as Om is all powerful and would never take the form of a tortoise and suspects him of being a demon. In this series gods live off of belief, without it they die, so Om must slowly persuade the boy that he is Om, without letting on to how he became a tortoise or that there are other gods out there. Together they go on a quest to restore Om to his full godhood, and Om slowly begins to learn that people matter, their lives are not a game, and that to have one hundred sheep, you have to be willing to search for one. There's also a neat little scene where he literally beats up the other gods and twists their arms in to telling their followers the same to stop a war that would wipe out all of Omnia, which is nothing more than a board game to them.

Om also appears to his followers, and makes his original last believer his final prophet. He makes commandments and then desires to go off to smite those who would attack his followers, but his prophet refuses and argues him in to establishing a constitutional religion, where Om may not make any commandments that he himself will not follow. Om agrees to this, and in finding peace Omnia ushers in an age of education and tolerance by allowing other religions in to Omnia (Thou shall not subject thy god to market forces!), as well as building a great library. As the series goes on. Omnianism is still highly popular, as they continue to have rabid frothing belief in Om, but go about spreading their belief in somewhat less violent ways, as Om has decreed that his followers develop their own ethics and theology based on his existence. Omnianism has become a much more moderate religion, and instead of Om now being the only god, they now say he is the only god worth worshiping. He also refuses to manifest again, and relies on the uncertainty of his work through people to give them faith in him, as they cannot be sure if he is listening.