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Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Default Is the value of art Dying?   #1  
It has been a thought/worry/concern for me for a while. Much of modern program maps and the like remove the need for an artist to depict criminals, or make mock-up models. At least in places like the USA, where the business system does not have limits to overworking oneself (In Austria, there is a maximum time you may work, and many (I think) turn to writing/art as a hobby in their off time.)...are arts and literature no longer viable as a full-on business?

Is the value of one's craftsmanship and artwork dying?
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
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Last edited by Lawtan; 04-15-2014 at 11:52 AM.
Old Posted 04-15-2014, 03:55 AM Reply With Quote  
Default   #2   Areadbhar Areadbhar is offline
Fresh meat :D
*Pokes thread back up in the hopes of discussion*
Old Posted 04-15-2014, 02:21 PM Reply With Quote  
Gallagher Gallagher is offline
It Won't Stop
Default   #3  
Lol. No. Time isn't the only factor in things like this. Consider, in the USA where all of those replacements are being used, there is also a higher number of people with money to spend on art. In my area, there are several shops doing quite well for themselves, buying art from local artists to then be resold to customers, allowing said artist to earn while a buyer is found. There are ample programs available for people to learn new crafts. In fact, there are more resources and more ways to get yourself out there than ever before. What you have to realize is that art has never been a traditional method of work, and never will be. Artists have to adapt to survive, but in this day and age, anyone has that chance. Artists aren't stuck in place because no one in the village is interested in trivialities like pretty pictures. In fact, cities themselves often commission artists. Same for museums, hospitals, local businesses. There are sites like this, and not like this, and countless games that reply on artists and writers. There are illustrators still needed for books and if you try to argue that books and writing are dying out, too, you're wrong. I won't even go through how wrong that is. I literally cannot enter a room, any room in any building, and find nothing that had no artistic aspect to it. Hell, I can't even go downtown without seeing art somewhere along the street. If anything, art is so ingrained in our society that it isn't dying out, people are just noticing it less.

Also, please don't bump. Not only is it against the rules, but this was posted less than 12 hours before you did so.







Old Posted 04-15-2014, 05:16 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #4   Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
What's with the utilitarian capitalistic assignation of "value"? If it's the case that the merit of a thing is determined by how much money it can generate, I think there's a larger societal issue you should be taking exception to. I cannot but question the integrity of an artist who is financially motivated to pursue their craft. I would think, if anything, liberating art from the shackles of monetary dependence would allow for a greater honesty in pursuing it.

I would rather live in a society where computers and machines can obviate the majority of human functions to allow people to indulge there own interests as they see fit, than one where art is forced to conform to social demand in order to provide utility that can be financially compensated.
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Old Posted 04-15-2014, 05:45 PM Reply With Quote  
Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Default   #5  
@Galla: Firstly, sorry. Won't do that again.
Secondly, that is a very helpful/hopeful answer. Part of me feel that (especially with the large amount of art nowadays) much of it is stolen (as mentioned in the other thread) and I guess I find it hard to believe that people are still willing to purchase the services of (artists/musicians/etc.) as opposed to theft...or doing without. I guess I may be being overly pessimistic on my outlook on people.

@Suzerain: Thing is, in a capitalistic (or even socialistic) society, liberation of any craft from money does not entail a freedom to honestly pursue better efforts, but instead limits a person and costs them the means to have shelter, or eat...let alone the materials sometimes needed for artwork. That is my concern.
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
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��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 04-15-2014, 10:34 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #6   Gallagher Gallagher is offline
It Won't Stop
Yes. You are being pessimistic. And honestly, the way you talk, I don't think you're actually in any circles of artists that earn money (primary or secondary source) with their crafts. I can't even wrap my head around how someone could possibly worry that programs or theft are taking over. They only seem more common because this day and age has more artists popping up than ever before. The market for character art and adoptables especially is absolutely flourishing these days. I have friends who will make entire sets of adoptable characters, selling them for real money mind, and half or more of them will be sold overnight.

Also, as far as Suze's point goes... It gets said a lot but if you have a true, honest passion for something, you will find a way to make it happen. It's personal choice if you put other things first.







Old Posted 04-15-2014, 11:34 PM Reply With Quote  
Lawtan Lawtan is offline
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Default   #7  
You may be correct there, Galla. I am not it any actual art circles, and most people who are not doing things "traditionally" whom I know are struggling to get by.

It's difficult not to be pessimistic sometimes.
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
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��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 04-15-2014, 11:43 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #8   Poggio Poggio is offline
Bald and loving it!
You have to define art first. If you think of it in a limited scope as the image on a wall in a gallery then yeah, that is a small percentage of people who actually create that shit. How ever I can assure you that there are a large base for artist and not just in the limited scope that you are thinking of. Every logo, every fabric, every rug, every comic, every marketing campaign, From the Obey logo, to book covers, to movie posters, to editorial cartoons in the paper, to animated commercials, to video games to textiles, clothing, fashion. There is an artist behind that.

So where is the death of art when it has morphed into something else?

Edit: Also Art is subjective. Your friends and your art circles may not appeal to the markets around them.
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Old Posted 04-15-2014, 11:47 PM Reply With Quote  
Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Default   #9  
That, too may be a reason. Where I live I can best describe as "stunting creative growth", "nepotistic", "bitter", and "artificial".

And yet, I am concerned for them still, and other places worse off. I believe it is that concern, rubbed on a decent amount of frustration of my own unrelated issues, that sparked this all. Thank you guys for answering my question to the best of your ability. Admittedly, this has left me with another question, but I'll save that for another time.
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
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��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

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Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 04-16-2014, 12:15 AM Reply With Quote  
Default   #10   Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Something else to consider also is the effect of globalization on the saturation of any kind of creative market. There's just so much being created, which thanks to DeviantArt, Youtube, Etsy, Ebay, and the rest of internet, an audience of billions is exposed to but at the same time, the number of content producers has increased exponentially.

I would contend it is almost definitionally impossible for a true classic or masterpiece to be created now in any medium -- there's simply too many alternatives bombarding us at all times for any one creative work to take on the kind of hallowed cultural status that was possible before the information age. It's unlikely any work will stand the test of time anymore.

Rather than pessimism, though, I think it's cause instead for a paradigm shift. We don't live in that world any longer, what it means to be a successful artist has changed. Mourning the passing of a bygone zeitgeist is pointless.

And, Law, if I could make a suggestion, I think more productive conversations would ensue if you were able to present your ideas more concisely. I honestly don't know what, exactly, you're argument even is, you've jumped from computer programs invalidating criminal sketch artists to digital art theft. It's difficult to respond to such a scattershot of ideas.

Also, you may want to look into stories of some of the novel ways people have marketed their ideas and work through the internet in ways that have defeated piracy. The comedian Louis CK sells DVDs of his shows for anything someone is willing to donate to his website, as little as one cent, and despite them all being on youtube, he's become a millionaire in only a few short years. We're in a transitional period of adapting to the ways the internet has changed our lives. There's no reason to think that a new creative marketplace for art of all kinds won't emerge or isn't already emerging.
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 04-16-2014, 12:28 AM Reply With Quote  
Quiet Man Cometh Quiet Man Cometh is offline
We're all mad here.
Default   #11  
I think what Suze was getting at in his earlier post with the liberation of art from Capital comment, is that most paid artwork comes in the form of specific commissions. An artist is hired to do what the client wants, not what it might occur to the artist to do. Therefore, the artist's creative freedom is limited by the tastes and personal desires of the person/company paying for it. In that sense, artistic skills become tools like clerical skills or mechanical skills, etc.

I'm no history expert, but I don't believe there's ever been a time in history where someone could be expected to make a living off of art or literature. Those that did, were generally the exceptions. May artists could only fund their work by being supported by a patron, or by being rich themselves. I know several artists, but very few use their skills as their primary means of making money.

On the other hand, art is in many ways a philosophical entity as well. Who would count as an artist and who wouldn't? What about a chef who makes gourmet food, or a mechanic that restores old cars? There's a fair chance they would consider themselves artists as well, and believing that hasn't reduced the value of what they can do. It can pay the bills like any other skill.
Last edited by Quiet Man Cometh; 04-16-2014 at 01:28 AM.
Old Posted 04-16-2014, 12:57 AM Reply With Quote  
Default   #12   Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh View Post
On the other hand, art is in many ways a philosophical entity as well. Who would count as an artist and who wouldn't? What about a chef who makes gourmet food, or a mechanic that restores old cars? There's a fair change they would consider themselves artists as well, and believing that hasn't reduced the value of what they can do. It can pay the bills like any other skill.
My surgeon considers himself an artist, and I can assure you he is quite rich.
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 04-16-2014, 01:00 AM Reply With Quote  
Quiet Man Cometh Quiet Man Cometh is offline
We're all mad here.
Default   #13  
Still on the topic of value and art, I wonder what sort of standard follows it around. Yes, you can make money with art, some people make a lot of money with it, but there is also this idea that if you do use art to make money, you are somehow less of a creative individual or a sellout. There's often an idea that the artist that does what they want to do out of inspiration and pleasure is more of an "artist" than the one that does it for money.

On to more the more practical things again, whether or not you can make money with art depends entirely on what you do. There are still things that can't be done by machine and craftsman are needed to work on them. "Hand crafted" is also something of an excuse for prestige as well. Not being able to make a living with art doesn't stop someone from doing it either. They would just have to spend less time on it, and use fund from the job that makes money in order to buy supplies and such. All in all, it just mean a little more effort.
Old Posted 04-20-2014, 06:23 AM Reply With Quote  
Default   #14   Suzerain of Sheol Suzerain of Sheol is offline
Desolation Denizen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Man Cometh View Post
Still on the topic of value and art, I wonder what sort of standard follows it around. Yes, you can make money with art, some people make a lot of money with it, but there is also this idea that if you do use art to make money, you are somehow less of a creative individual or a sellout. There's often an idea that the artist that does what they want to do out of inspiration and pleasure is more of an "artist" than the one that does it for money.

On to more the more practical things again, whether or not you can make money with art depends entirely on what you do. There are still things that can't be done by machine and craftsman are needed to work on them. "Hand crafted" is also something of an excuse for prestige as well. Not being able to make a living with art doesn't stop someone from doing it either. They would just have to spend less time on it, and use fund from the job that makes money in order to buy supplies and such. All in all, it just mean a little more effort.
I do believe 3D Printing is fast making that untrue.
Cold silence has a tendency
to atrophy any sense of compassion
between supposed lovers.
Between supposed brothers.
Old Posted 04-20-2014, 01:45 PM Reply With Quote  
Lawtan Lawtan is offline
Dragon Storm
Default   #15  
I may have to agree with both Quiet and Suze on that; yes, 3D printing and similar technology can potentially remove the need for human labor on any one project...but no current technology, 3D Printer included, can do all the work (simply because there are not enough resources on the planet to do so). I am skeptical that most modern technology will ever be available to the world population. (An example being that the entire internet community is still a minority in relation to the overall population)
Lawtan: A chaotic dragoness with issues.
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��s ofer�ode, �isses sw� m�g.

__


Science, horror, folklore, and cuteness incoming!
Old Posted 04-20-2014, 06:56 PM Reply With Quote  
Default   #16   Coda Coda is offline
Developer
3D printers can't even manufacture other 3D printers at the moment. There's limits to the technology fundamental in the concept of a general-purpose manufacturing tool.

And even a hypothetical perfect 3D printer needs a model to work from. And who's going to create that model? An artist.
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Old Posted 04-21-2014, 04:30 PM Reply With Quote  
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