[Coda]

Originally Posted by nickjr

LOL

So then we'd need to define what's as good as a starter dragon, because I'm getting a vibe from your posts that says 2.5x atk and 2.5x rcv isn't as good as 3x atk and 1.5x rcv (but then again, 2/4/2 teams were outshined by 1/9/1 teams back in 2014 and only recently are people starting to like 2/6.25/2.5 teams xD)

1/2.5/2.5 is slightly better than 1/3/1.5 if your team has enough base RCV to make the multiplier matter but not so much base RCV that it's wasted. I'll take even 1/3/1 over 1/2.5/2.5 if my team has enough base RCV.

Match-5-with-enhanced is fine, IMO, because of the current leads that use that mechanic (thinking of Tsubaki, Sumire, Awoken Tsukuyomi, Constellation 1 pantheon) as well as GH's apparent realization that they need to give OE awakenings in greater numbers so that OE teams can be competitive with TPA and row teams. Raw numbers in the leader skill alone really can't be used in comparisons, as I can tell you know. You're missing the OE boost for Sumire.

I'm not missing the OE boost for Sumire; I'm also granting it to the other two leaders because it's so easy to come by. (Athena in particular brings her own via her active.)

5 OEs is standard for match-5-with-enhanced teams, similar to how 6-7 rows was standard for row teams; no one runs match-5-with-enhanced teams with fewer than 4 OEs unless they're desperate or something, just as no one runs row teams with fewer than 3? 4? 5? rows of their main color

Rows aren't worth running with 3 because the math works out that two 3-matches is stronger than one 6-match until you have at least 4. At 4 you're slightly better than break-even on two 3-matches plus an extra combo vs. one 6-match plus an extra combo, but two 6-matches blows four 3-matches away.

My row team is packing 9.

The reason 5 OEs is standard is because 5 OEs is enough to make 100% enhanced orbs. The 4% damage bump for additional OEs isn't enough of a difference to bother stacking for.

Matching 4 orbs on an Athena team gives 20.25x attack to double TPA monsters and 13.5x attack to single TPA monsters. To get that 20.25x to match Sumire's 36.855x (which is with just 1 blue OE per sub) on an Athena team, you'd need a 1.82 to come from somewhere. With 9 light OEs, you get 1 + (0.06 * 4) and 1 + (0.05 * 9) for a light 4-match, which is only 1.798. Have fun trying to squeeze 9 light OEs into 4 subs lol Valk's easy, but beyond that...

Of Light gods with at least one TPA: Valk's got two, Verche's got one, Zeus&Hera has one, L/D Izanagi has one, Zeus Olympios has one, L/G Sakuya has two, chibi Metatron has one, Cinderella has one... and soon, reincarnated Verche will have THREE. <3

Or you could just pack Hathor with four OEs; she may not have TPA but she won't weigh you down.

I'm currently running Athena - Valkyrie - Verche - Z&H, and I've not settled on whether the last slot goes to Santa Claus (1xOE), Chibi LZL (2xOE), or Sun Wukong (none of the above but bind recover and a useful active). If I need the ATK more than the HP, I shuffle down and use LIza as a leader (1xOE). And finally, I'm training up a Zeus Olympios. With Zeus, that'll be 6 OEs on a full-TPA team, or 8 once Verche's reincarnation comes to the US.

So my team, once upgraded as mentioned, would do 3 * 3 * 2.25 * 1.24 * 1.32 = 33.1452x. Considering we're comparing a farmable leader to a REM leader so rare I've never actually seen one, that's pretty darn good. Replace one of those Athenas with a Kanna, or run Z&H as the leader instead of Athena, and that goes up to 38.67x -- and now you're beating double Sumire. Running two Z&H or two Kanna gets you to 45.1143x. Sumire's not looking very good anymore.

Matching 4 orbs on a DIza team gives 36x to double TPA subs and 24x to single TPA subs without OEs. Including DIza's dark OE, the 36x becomes 36 * 1.24 * 1.1 = 49.104x and the 24x becomes 32.736x. 1/3 of a double DIza team carries 0 TPA, though, and will only get 21.824x. All of that is assuming all dark orbs are enhanced.

If there's a total of 6 dark OEs (average 1 per monster), then the initial 36x, 24x, and 16x instead become 36 * 1.24 * 1.3 = 58.032x, 38.688x, and 25.792x respectively.

Well, assuming (extremely approximately) that each monster has equal attack, you can just do a weighted average, so (1/3)21.824 + (2/3)49.104 ~= 40.01x if all subs have 2xTPA and none have OEs, or (1/3)25.792 + (2/3)58.032 ~= 47.285x with more OEs. Again -- Sumire's not looking so amazing.

Awoken Pandora, Awoken FA Luci, and Awoken Astaroth have all been shown to clear Arena (1.0 or 2.0, not sure) shortly after their releases. I didn't look carefully to see their latent setup or their subs, but... yeah...

Okay, I spoke too strongly. Awoken Pandora et al aren't TERRIBLE. They're a little AWKWARD to get the full power out of them and their real benefit is that they're not uselessly nerfed if you don't and they have good synergy. Sumire's in the same boat: The power isn't in how good the leader skill is, it's in the synergy of what you can combine with it.

Of course, flat bonus leaders benefit from having extremely stable and predictable gameplay.