Weird Religions
 

By weird, I'm only referring to newer religions that you may not understand or are just a bit strange from your perspective.

I myself am part of a religion people may consider to be weird, so I'd like to get everyone's thoughts.
Please answer the following questions and add anything else you'd like.

1. What religions do you find to be strange?
2. What religion (if any) do you conform to and why?
3. Do you believe that there is a true path?
4. What is different from the religion in question one and your own religion?
5. Do you have any interest in learning about religions? Why or why not?

Please be respectful. If anyone has questions about another's answers do not talk in absolutes, but ask why they think that way.
Thank you!

(I hope this is the right place)

I think there is a possible section for this...or if not it has come up in the Pagan Inn...can't remember...

To answer your question

In the sense that religion is merely the most visible self-deception of the human mind to blind ourselves from the brutality of the universe we exist in, none. Religion is a perfectly natural outgrowth of the mind's tendency to sequester itself from the more troubling aspects of being self-aware. Far from being unique in this regard, though, religion is merely the most dramatic externalization of the sort of lies we all tell ourselves to get through the day, from the micro- to the macrocosmic. Even the act of writing this post is a willing act of self-deluding distraction on my own part, for instance, from the fact that I am the imaginary, vestigial projection of the bio-electrical processes of a chunk of cerebral meat over which I have no control, taking post-hoc credit for the (non-)decisions it makes, all in a cosmos of decaying molecules undergoing a Godlike process of non-consensual suicide.

I am as hard-line an atheist as you can possibly get. I am also a helpless pessimist and an avowed Antinatalist. I hold the position that the evolution of human self-awareness was the single most atrocious thing to ever happen in the history of the universe, and that it is a crime beyond reckoning to willfully create new sentient beings. (And I do feel the need to stress here, the distinction between being pro-nonexistence and pro-death, I am in favor of minimizing the suffering and maximizing the joy of every person currently burdened with being alive, and extending those lives as long as possible, I simply reject the proposition that creating new humans does anyone any good, least of all the person created. While having no wish to die (due to the cocktail of neuroses and reptile instincts evolution has imprinted on me), I very much wish I had never been born in the first place, if the distinction is at all clear.)

To paraphrase someone smarter than myself, "The only inalienable right any human is born with is the right to die, not necessarily at a time of their choosing". The only "truth" is that we're all dancing at the blind machinations of our subconscious to perpetuate the greatest, most meaningless tragedy the cosmos has ever seen. We're a living museum to the paradox of evolution: by defeating and transcending nature, we've become enemies of nature, but we're hopelessly tethered to a natural existence we can never escape. We're the victims of a useless mutation which serves only the produce the greatest possible sum of suffering, and the more we fight our wretched state of being, the worse it hurts.

An irrelevant question.

As a distraction, it's as valid an avenue as any other. I'd venture I know more about most religions than is average, but it's not something I hold any particular fondness for studying (as much as one can hold the illusion of fondness under the constant pressure of the Thanatos-instinct...)


But that's just, like, my opinion.

(Oh, and in terms of fringe philosophies, I'm well aware this is quite possibly the most alienating mindset one can possibly put forth. I've never had any interest in trying to convince anyone to believe the same.)

when I was a mod, religious anything really belonged in Life Styles and Issues. religion is a life style and such so, yea. But that was when I was a mod, it's been over 2 years now I think.

and as I don't have a religion, I won't be answering questions. ^^, I was just curious on if an interesting religion has popped up. I like reading on new things in case some one at my work place happens to be that. easier to be under standing if you know something about something

Why? No really, why just newer ones? I figure any of them can be weird depending on perspective. Tradition might only make it seem less so.

I wouldn't say any of them are any stranger than the other, it depends on the perspective.

None, though I suppose by default, geographical location, and familial traditions, I have some Christian leanings. The family was Anglican at some point.

Nope!

Not sure how to answer this, since I don't really know much about more than one religion to really give a good comparison. I suppose the major difference between myself and some religions is that I'm immediately suspicious of anything claiming to be a holy book or word of god or any sort of life-time "how-to." I'm a gut feeling type, or might go for a well made argument.

sure, in the sense of theology or myth study, but not as any sort of actual system of belief. I have the mind-set I have and if I happen to agree with a particular teaching, then I can agree with it, but that doesn't make me of that religion.

First off, I would like to say welcome to the site! Good show engaging in serious discussion.


As long as 'strange' is the word we're going with here, I'm going to say 'most of them' however, if we're putting them on a measurable scale, I'm going to have to say Scientology is definitely topping the charts, as well as various versions of your newer Paganism, Wicca and the Esoteric Order of Dagon. One of those might not be real.

Pretty sure I'm agnostic, with leanings of atheism. When I was younger I was of Pentacostal denomination of Christianity, although looking at my behavior I only thought I was one, I didn't follow a lot of the practices and way of life that is required by most. I suppose you could say a lot of people do that with their religions. Anyway.

I was hateful. I was a bigot because it was fun and validating to hate, I was backed (supposedly) by my book (that I never actually read) and my congregation. I told one of the few people I grew up with that he was going to Hell for being gay. I am no longer that person, and I have apologized profusely, but I can't ever get over my guilt. But part of what swayed me away were just various events in my life and a slow realization that what little I did know of my own religion seemed very contradictory. Not to mention that the whole "speaking in tongues" thing never seemed to take me and I just ad libbed it to keep pressure off of me during services. So I slowly went my own way. I tried to make up for the things I had done and said. And now, I'm undecided. It might be a weak stance, but I don't know what's out there, or what I believe, but I'm okay with not knowing. Organized religions do shirk me though, the idea of congregations being lead by priests/imams/whatever supposedly speaking the will of their religion gives me the creeps now. Nothing wrong with other people doing it, but I don't think it's for me.

All hail the Great Potato! Also congrats on finding this.
Nah. In the words of one Sam Vimes, the three basic needs of any animal is to eat, mate, and crap. Somewhere along the line we had enough time to come up with a fourth and fifth and so on, and one of them happened to be the need to explain why we're here and religion fell in to that need. So it's whatever gives you peace of mind while you're here to me. Walk you're path, so long as you're tripping me on mine. Although if I had to choose, the only one true path is the one to the fridge.

Pffft well I don't believe that Xanu or Xanadu or Xenu is going to come back for me once I get my thetans in check, for one. So far I have yet to see a Wiccan successfully cast a spell or alter anything in a quantifiable way without directly manipulating it, so I guess we're not so different there, although belief wise we're on opposite sides. I mean once they do I had better get my letter telling me I am accepted to the Salem Witches Institute (Hogwarts is for English students, Americans go here!). Also, my religion of nothing directly contrasts with the machinations of Dagon, and I have yet to hear the callings to the deep water and Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. We stand opposed on that subject.

Maybe as a side hobby, but it's going to be fairly low on the list. I'm just disinterested unless there's some colorful history that does not involve murdering too many people in the name of somebody. That said, my greatest scholarly knowledge on a religion is probably Omnianism. I will read about some Omnianism.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions! I'm glad someone else likes to study religion as well :) Hinduism and Havism both focus on the point that everyone has their own truths and that there is no right way since it differs per perspective.
I do know of animism, but what is absurdism? Could you tell me more about your beliefs? I'd love to hear about them :)

I'm just quoting this last bit because it's a long response! I thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I've never met anyone that thinks quite in the same way you do.

I would like to ask you a few questions to get a bit more clarity on your beliefs and ideals.

as you probably are aware, cetaceans are sentient beings. Do you think they fair better or worse than humanity? They have the same level of self-awareness, so I am curious of what you think of them in comparison.
another question is what do you think about mental disorders? I know they occur in almost all animals, so I am curious what your opinion is on them in comparison to self-awareness (if that makes sense)?

although I personally am not a fan of being negative, I tend to think rather negatively myself. You said you know a lot about most religions. I am wondering if you mean religion as a whole or specific religions?
I'm asking this because I am wondering what your opinion is on religions that tend to support scientific explanations on the reasons we think and feel and exist, but try to (attempt anyway) form a community in which we can openly speak with one another as human beings?

Your answer was very interesting to read for me. Thank you once again for responding!

This is my first post, so I had no idea where to put it! I took a guess, sorry if it's in a bad location, but I'll remember for next time.

also, since you are interested in unusual religions, do you know of Havism, Scientology, or Jediism?

Well, it could be older religions too. The only actual motivation I had for asking of new religions is because I myself am apart of a new religion.

and don't worry, the only way you can conform to a religion (even if you agree with all their beliefs) is by converting or declaring yourself as a member of that faith :)
It's a little annoying when one talks about their beliefs and are labelled almost immediately.

Thank you kindly, dear, and thank you a load for taking the time to answer my questions! I hope to enjoy my time here :)
What's the Esoteric Order of Dagon? I've never heard of it! I definitely consider Scientology the stranger ones only because I don't really get how people get into it in the first place.

I'm glad you've become a better person in the long run and yes, all hail the great potato!

I definitely have conflicting views on some of the more spiritual religions, but I do like religions that are very open and accepting. also religions that do support science.

I've never heard of Omianism. What is that? :o

(As a side note, other than at the start of a thread, it is generally frowned upon to post multiple times back-to-back)

I think the Esoteric Order of Dagon was meant as a joke, unless Lovecraftian cults nowadays exist. Scientology is to my understanding the perfect blend of "cult brainwash behavior" and "religion"...to rather negative degree (in the "we will financially ruin and potentially kidnap members who leave" sense)

Well, you can sort of say that Absurdism is, to me, the closest answer to the problem posed by Nietzsche (in which he was concerned with the nihilistic attitude and its harm to humanity being able to move forward and live)...in that it ignores the question of morality and god in favor of the central reason for asking such questions - why should we live, and favor life?
Camus, in his Myth of Sisyphus, illustrates how knowledge/religion/joy/etc. are possibly pointless (we lack the ability to ascertain if there is a point), but our struggles and variety of ideas do sometimes have positive benefits, and though nothing may be true or of value, by pursuing the goals, we spit in the face of the cruel situation we are born in, and act as the Greek Sisyphus, always trying to push the boulder up Hade's cursed hill. A sort of tragic, but admirably determined, hero.

Jediism is a bit odd, admittedly...but haven't observed it that much, so I don't know much about it.

The Hermetic Order and the like are interesting, as is Alchemy and its derivatives. The form and changes in Ancient Egyptian mythology, Shinto, and Ojibwe beliefs are interesting. I haven't gotten far into the Ancient Inca mythos, though how their strict gender-caste formation came about is a good model for why so many societies are set up like that (in that strict gender roles are due to trying to establish and justify a central inheritance system of power across disjointed matrilineal and patrilineal tribe lineages).

I do remember hearing about the findings on this several years ago, I'm not entirely sure there's enough available data (from what I've seen) to be able to say on anything definitive on the matter. The human variant of self-consciousness comes with an intractable narcissism and self-aggrandizement, a constant desire to separate or elevate ourselves from the rest of the natural world, which in my view is the cause of the majority of our existential dysphoria. I would be willing to concede that the possibility exists for self-consciousness in other creatures lacking the characteristics that shackle the human mind to its fundamental state of misery. I find the idea of non-conscious intelligence rather intriguing as well; I don't believe in extra-terrestrial visitations, but if somehow space-faring alien lifeforms did arrive here, it would be very interesting to see if they possessed the same sense of self-awareness that humans do. Artificial intelligence, as well, may be able to shed light on this subject. (I'm something of a trans-humanist advocate as well, I think the best possible future for humanity would be essentially the inverse of the Matrix films: mind-uploading into personal digital universes that exist only to maximize the happiness of the person experiencing them. But that's speaking purely ideally. Eliminating biological mortality through medical science seems a much more plausible endeavor, at least in the short term.)


I think in a way I'd define human consciousness itself as a mental disorder. It's a difficult subject to think about, as it's kind of abstract, but the experiences I've had on certain drugs seem to indicate that self-consciousness is pretty unnecessary to everything else about human functioning. I've had coherent conversations that were running completely off my sub-conscious, more or less, but I wouldn't take that as any kind of conclusive evidence, objectively, given the way the sub-conscious is directly tied to the conscious, let alone the complexity of memory-formation and the emergent quality of the personality.

I guess to answer your question, though, I consider mental illnesses something parallel to the conscious mind. Even if they manifest on the level of awareness, the root of them is in the physiology of the brain, but again, in certain cases, it seems almost impossible to distinguish the two.

Oh, I merely meant that in the course of my education I've been exposed to the details of quite of few religions (I have my degree in English literature and took quite a few philosophy courses along the way), though primarily the Judaic monotheisms and the various ancient paganisms of Europe and around the Mediterranean. I don't tend to read much about modern religions.

As to the second part, I'd say my original answer still holds. If we've evolved socially/culturally to flee from existential despair by drowning it out with more immediate concerns or by compartmentalizing our place in the cosmos, it really doesn't matter what shape that takes, religion or otherwise. It really comes down to whatever works for the individual(s).


You're welcome. I hope my responses aren't too off-putting. As you may be able to imagine, I'm quite used to these ideas being met with hostility, so I appreciate you taking them in the spirit they're meant.

I hereby revoke the contractio frontis generalis of this thread. Given the length of the replies, it's entirely reasonable to allow the OP to separate them into multiple posts. It's not like they're spamming meaningless drivel for extra Aurum.

Oh, look, I just double-posted! Rogue admin on the loose! Somebody stop it!

As mentioned by Lawtan, the Esoteric Order of Dagon is the entirely fictional cult from Lovecraft's works, although they have a little piece on how it overthrew Christianity in a town in the story "Shadow Over Innsmouth" that is a nice little read.

I would be okay with a religious backing of science. So long as I don't have to give up my hedonistic lifestyle and dubious morality on various matters.

And sadly, Omnianism is also a fictional religion set in the Discworld universe, first being detailed in the book Small Gods. A quick run through on the religion can be found below, and I cannot recommend the book enough.

yeah, Scientology is exactly like that.
also, absurdism sounds confusing and super cool!! I wish I was smart enough to understand it better :)
Jediism is odd, but that's why I think it's cool :D

That's true with what you say about incas, but I do prefer loose gender roles. Egyptian Mythos also interest me greatly, especially the architecture that arrived from it.

Just wondering... how do I quote multiple people in the post?

I'm glad you also agree in multiple states of self-awareness. although there isn't much evidence for cetaceans as a whole to be sentience, there is strong evidence of Orcas and bottlenose dolphins as sentient creatures with strong self-awareness. They even have multiple languages and speak differently with each other depending on gender and age. I think it's fascinating.
I also agree that the likelihood of alien visitation is slim to none. However, as science tells, I also agree it's almost guaranteed that there is intelligent life elsewhere. I love pondering about what other lifeforms would be like. It's definitely a worth wondering what state of self-awareness they will have :)

The only thing I wonder with eliminating biological mortality is, what about wanting to have a family? Do you think that biological desire will be eliminated as well? I'd love to hear what you think artificial beings would be like if it is humans that are programming them.

It's interesting you mention subconscious. Did you know that it has been disproven that a subconscious exists and that what we are meant to identify as subconscious is just instinctual behavior? I thought that was interesting.

Thank you for answering my question! I think it is really interesting to draw parallels between some mental illnesses in humans and animals in terms of behavior.

although you said you don't read much about modern religions, I'd honestly love to hear your opinions on Scientology just to see if it has more insight than the typical views of it.

No, they aren't off-putting at all! You were very polite and courteous about your beliefs and I really appreciate that :)

Sorry for only quoting the last bit, but it's a long response (I appreciate it!)

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I always thought it was a little odd how some people that don't agree morally with their religion use it to correct people, but to each their own.

I don't have any problems with the door-to-door. all of the Jehovah's Witnesses that have visited me have been very friendly and willing to answer any questions I've had. although most just offered me a pamphlet, which wasn't a bother at all. In fact, they were very interesting to read :)
I agree that people should follow what they wish. With your last question, you're interested in learning about religions, correct? Do you mind if I ask you your opinions on a couple of the "odder" ones?

Wow, that is so interesting! Thank you so much for giving the information for Omnianism!
I love religions that don't enforce the typical Christian sins except for the not killing and cheating part, just because I'd always feel like a bad person otherwise XD

Hmm, the ones I know about are Scientology, Jediism, and the religion I'm part of, Havism, for starts.

What is Havism?

Also, the biological immortality/inability for humanity to escape human nature is a subject I intend to explore in time. (Essentially in response to a fictional question of "why godlike beings would want/need people"...mixed with trans-humanism deconstruction)

Copy their text, and then put

around it.

Just clarifying that I agree with this, if there was any confusion. I only reject the narcissistic claims of supposed abductees and Area 51 conspiracy theorists. I agree with the conclusions of the Drake Equation. Though Fermi's Paradox is also rather intriguing...

I'd be hesitant to say anything on the subject; it's a hypothetical built off of a hypothetical. I think on this particular issue, I'll agree with Dr. Aubrey de Gray that we should deal with concerns like that once we've actually cured aging and the like.

And as for AI, I frankly have no idea. The instinctual part of me says it's a horrifying prospect, but the rational pessimist is more of the persuasion that if we could create of digital God that utterly transcends us, it would be the greatest thing our species ever accomplished, even if said God's very first action was to exterminate us from the face of the planet. I think it was Sam Harris who had a moral theory on the subject, that the creation of supreme, self-recursive AGI would be the pinnacle of human contribution to the universe.

Yes, I do recall that. I misspoke. My apologies.

There's actually a serious argument to be had over whether my position itself qualifies as mental illness or not. It brings into question the standards that we use to describe a healthy mind, and whether those standards have a basis in nature or in culture (though, then you can question whether or not culture IS an expression of nature...) It's addressed in Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, which is very accessible as an introduction to philosophical pessimism, if you want to hear someone better educated and more eloquent than myself make the case.

I think Scientology is somewhat fascinating for the fact that we know exactly where it came from and how it evolved, and can track that evolution over time. In terms of understanding the effect religions have on the personal and collective psyche, I think it's a really interesting resource. I'd be curious as to what percentage of the high-ranking members actually believe the tenets of the religion. The cynic in me wants to think it's all about money in the end, but religion can take powerful roots in people, so I wouldn't be that surprised if they really did believe.

I find that an interesting topic too! Especially the phrase "human nature." Sometimes it feels like saying human nature is an excuse for not developing as a person or a civilization, while other times it seems some people are very troubled by the idea that they believe they are slaves to the reactive mind. It seems to all depend on perspective, but I'd love to find more perspectives about it!

Havism is a relatively new religion that I'm not so good at explaining. It does promote non-violence, but that isn't required. The religion focuses on the equality of race/gender/sexuality/religion/etc of all humans, being able to understand multiple perspectives, and able to converse with one another and able to express ideals without the typical angry backlash.
It's a religion that encourages its followers to discover their own answers and delve into science to find out their questions as opposed to turning to the religion itself.
The holy text consists of many stories and scenarios with no rightly defined answer and it is meant to stimulate a natural wonder of what is truly right and what is truly wrong when consequences are not defined.
Sort of like Geigy's Ring, which states that if humans could commit an injustice without any consequences or anyone knowing about it, they would be driven to do such things.

The main thing I like about Havism is that it does agree with most of my ideals--that no life is better than all life, human equality, expressing oneself, etc.
There are holidays and such and the religion does take great pride in allowing everyone to have fun haha

Thanks so much! I'll start doing that!!

Oh, yes I know :) I agree as well, is all I was trying to say. Sorry about that.
I often wondered why the abductions stories exist. Do you believe it is only the result of narcissism and delusion, or mental illness of some kind?
There is that "disease" known as Morgellons. If you haven't heard of it, it only occurs in alien abduction alleged victims. as a disease itself, well, it simply isn't one. However, it has been noted that the alleged sufferers of Morgellons all have similar psychiatric conditions.
In terms of area 51, the reason for that is that weird book someone made (blue planet? something planet?). Have you ever read it? I've been wanting to. Sounds like a trip:p-kittysmile:

Hm... I'm not sure how I'd feel about a transcendent digital god. If, of course, he or she didn't choose to exterminate us, I do wonder what sort of things he or she can change. It's definitely an interesting thing to think about.
I would like to ask why you think a, I will quote, "supreme, self-recursive agi" would be the pinnacle of human contribution?

:p-ugh:No need to apologize! I just thought I'd bring it up :)

It does seem like culture is an expression in nature. We can see behaviors that mimic culture not only in non-sentient monkeys and apes, but also in cetaceans. I think animal cultures are incredibly intriguing.
In terms of mental illness, I myself think there's a line that is constantly crossed with it.
I believe some conditions do, without a doubt, qualify as a mental illness. For me, anyway, if the alleged mental illness is something that impairs a person to the point of not allowing them to lead a "normal" life (or perform functions normally expected of a human being), I'd consider that a mental illness. However, nowadays just about anything can be a mental illness. I personally believe if there is no interference to live a healthy functional life, then I don't think it should be classified as a mental illness. If thinking differently than the norm is going to be classified as a mental illness, we will have to identify what actually is the normal and if the normal can exist in defined boundaries.
I'll check out! Can it be found on youtube?

That's the reason I love to research Scientology. The religion itself did start out predominantly about money. However, it evolved into something quite different. as for the higher ups, I do think that it could be as much as half and half in terms of beliefs. Considering many of the current higher ups have been raised with Scientology. I know in particular that David Miscavige does believe all the teachings of the religion.

A plausible mechanism of the alien abductions (and other mythical based culture-based mental illnesses could be as a way to alleviate cognitive dissonance. The brain often goes to great extents of contradiction, compromise, and self-delusion to avoid the pain of holding contradicting thoughts/ideals. An example being in the Salem Witch Trials (at least by my interpretation of events) where the culture there made it more acceptable to accuse an African woman (and others) of witchcraft rather than be caught socializing with her (or having relationships with others). The girls would have tricked themselves into believing witchcraft made such "evil" things seem okay rather than question the values of their culture. (This also factors into the hostility seen in some areas today to modern ideas, and how activism/speech for those ideas can if handled poorly result in a more close-minded audience...though I may be going too far there.

To my understanding, human culture (well, and hands) is the main thing that has allowed us our "superiority" - not intelligence/morals/personality. By that same token, there is little to no evidence that other animals and their cultures, given our technology, would be better than humanity.


On the note about "human nature" - I was sort of largely looking at trends in modern culture as how they relate to depression, and the "grassroots" and "transhumanism" movements.

I should have been more specific, I think people who believe the stories of abductees, and just believe in "UFO culture" in general, exhibit an anthropocentric narcissism -- and there's nothing particularly odd about that, we're a very narcissistic species. We only have our own frame of reference to work with, so it isn't that strange that we tend to consider ourselves the center of the universe as our "default" setting.


Well, yes, the extermination issue is a hyperbole for the sake of framing the question. And let me be more specific again, by that description I meant an Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) that is capable of exponential self-improvement. Every time it makes itself better, it gets greater at making itself better. Such an entity would be able to process the entire progression of human knowledge since the first sentient thought of our species in very short span of time, and from there surpass us in ways that we really can't even imagine. It is not remotely implausible to think that such a being would be capable of projecting itself out into the cosmos and assimilating other worlds, other stars into its own dominion, all while continuing to improve its own capacities. (Again, paraphrasing Sam Harris here)

Given that, the question is: if we as humans were capable of giving birth to the closest possible approximation of a physical God, would it not be the moral imperative of our species to do so? How could any number of human lives matter against the existential imperative of such an intelligence?

Again, it's a hypothetical and a hyperbole. I'm not sure I would agree that it is our duty to bring an AI like that into existence, if we ever had the ability to do so, mostly because I'm of the opinion that human selfishness is our birthright and being irrational creatures, we'd never willingly choose to do so at our own expense. But, I find it an interesting possibility to think about.



That's a perfectly reasonable answer, I think my question was somewhat rhetorical. The extreme pessimist position would hold that believing a "healthy, functional life" is possible is itself a mental illness, merely the brain attempting to choke off the scope of its own awareness. But, it's not really a relevant question in the end. It's almost entirely subjective.

I can't imagine it would be, unless there's an audiobook version floating around out there.

As a question on the "Create an AI God" bit...how would it work considering the varied definitions of what a god is?

Sam Harris is an interesting one - almost seems like he wants to create the scientific religion to me...unless it is meant as hyperbole...

I'm not entirely sure what the question is. As soon as such an entity came into being, it seems quite likely that a new and more accurate definition of Godhood would be established in short order. Why would human definitions have any bearing on an intelligence so many orders of magnitude beyond the scope of anything that came before it? I think the entire point of it being a physical
God is that it renders irrelevant the sophistry of theology.

Again, though, speaking entirely as a thought-experiment. Even that scenario may be attributing too humanized of motivations to a synthetic intelligence.

Not an aspersion I've heard cast at him before, of the many aspersions he tends to receive. I'm not totally sure it fits the scope of this thread to delve into it, though.

Not meant as slander, honestly. More meant to illustrate his constructionist ideas with morality and maintaining the social/emotional benefits of religion, without religion. But, I digress...

It sort of is the question "what is a god?" It is hard to ascertain godhood, when the idea of a god is on the whole contradictory. There are some typical aspects, with which an approximation can be made (like has been done with the concepts of life, death, and will) - namely that a god has physical power, superior knowledge, and can manipulate the laws of the area (not all gods are omniscient, or even immortal)...but several would disagree. Some societies use "god" to explain why we irrationally value anything, and that god is rather impersonal and powerless. Others are almost like Greek Heroes - God-Kings.

So...I don't know how the construction of a powerful entity would resolve a definition-based dilemma/disagreement. Is it made more clear in Sam's thought-problem, or did I misread the idea?

(I hope I did not come across negatively or dismissive, but am honestly confused as the solution seems like answering a circle with a square)

Apologies, I misunderstood. It's the sort of thing your hear Christian fundamentalists use in debates, that "militant Atheists" just make a God of science and are as fanatical as they themselves.

It's not that I disagree with what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much stock into my use of the word God; it wasn't really the point of the problem. You can substitute "arbitrarily powerful intelligence" if it makes it clearer. Or are you saying that the question of whether it can be called God or not is relevant to the question of the moral imperative of creating it? Because that might also be an interesting question.

And just to clarify, most of what I'm saying here is my extrapolation and reaction to Sam's thoughts on the matter, he doesn't actually have all that much to say about it. I can find you the clip on youtube if you're interested, though.

(Also, Pigeon, I'm sorry if this is hijacking your thread. We can take this to PMs if needed.)

Probably part the bit about "calling it a God is not relevant to its moral imperative" - was more confusing, but in retrospect it does fit into the "an alternative term for divine is 'something of value'" idea.
I can understand the idea - sort of akin to my idea of efforts to make something more sustainable/survivable than what exists in nature - go extremophiles!

(And yeah, sorry for the detraction)

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from on the alien abduction area. Do you think trying to suppress their own ideals results in mental illness?

Do you think it's natural for humans to consider ourselves as a species more important than other things? What are your opinions on extremist religions that value other life so much, practitioners sweep the walkway before them to avoid harming insects?


Would the agi's alleged morals be programmed by us or learned somehow by observation?
Do you think it would be irresponsible to make such a being, as it isn't implausible that it can rule other civilizations, forcing human morality onto them?

I have a profound interest in Scientology due to what it's based on and what draws people to join it. I visited the Church of Scientology near me for the first time yesterday. It was nice.
Jediism also interests me, but for reasons slightly different than your own. It's an almost exclusively online community and I really am curious as to how that works, since there are sermons apparently.

Havism is probably the newest religion out of the three, so it isn't well known. I personally like its values, which is why I converted.
That's awesome your family is so religiously diverse :) What is asatru, if you don't mind me asking?

No need, no need. I appreciate the courtesy, but I encourage having respectful discussions here :) so carry on by all means

Technically, they are diagnosed as psychosis in cases where the idea results in harm (their own or others)...mental illnesses again here being a rather iffy term. As Suze may agree, by certain definitions of mental illness, all human society is delusional and ill.