1/2.5/2.5 is slightly better than 1/3/1.5 if your team has enough base RCV to make the multiplier matter but not so much base RCV that it's wasted. I'll take even 1/3/1 over 1/2.5/2.5 if my team has enough base RCV.

I'm not missing the OE boost for Sumire; I'm also granting it to the other two leaders because it's so easy to come by. (Athena in particular brings her own via her active.)

Rows aren't worth running with 3 because the math works out that two 3-matches is stronger than one 6-match until you have at least 4. At 4 you're slightly better than break-even on two 3-matches plus an extra combo vs. one 6-match plus an extra combo, but two 6-matches blows four 3-matches away.

My row team is packing 9.

The reason 5 OEs is standard is because 5 OEs is enough to make 100% enhanced orbs. The 4% damage bump for additional OEs isn't enough of a difference to bother stacking for.

Of Light gods with at least one TPA: Valk's got two, Verche's got one, Zeus&Hera has one, L/D Izanagi has one, Zeus Olympios has one, L/G Sakuya has two, chibi Metatron has one, Cinderella has one... and soon, reincarnated Verche will have THREE. <3

Or you could just pack Hathor with four OEs; she may not have TPA but she won't weigh you down.

I'm currently running Athena - Valkyrie - Verche - Z&H, and I've not settled on whether the last slot goes to Santa Claus (1xOE), Chibi LZL (2xOE), or Sun Wukong (none of the above but bind recover and a useful active). If I need the ATK more than the HP, I shuffle down and use LIza as a leader (1xOE). And finally, I'm training up a Zeus Olympios. With Zeus, that'll be 6 OEs on a full-TPA team, or 8 once Verche's reincarnation comes to the US.

So my team, once upgraded as mentioned, would do 3 * 3 * 2.25 * 1.24 * 1.32 = 33.1452x. Considering we're comparing a farmable leader to a REM leader so rare I've never actually seen one, that's pretty darn good. Replace one of those Athenas with a Kanna, or run Z&H as the leader instead of Athena, and that goes up to 38.67x -- and now you're beating double Sumire. Running two Z&H or two Kanna gets you to 45.1143x. Sumire's not looking very good anymore.

Well, assuming (extremely approximately) that each monster has equal attack, you can just do a weighted average, so (1/3)21.824 + (2/3)49.104 ~= 40.01x if all subs have 2xTPA and none have OEs, or (1/3)25.792 + (2/3)58.032 ~= 47.285x with more OEs. Again -- Sumire's not looking so amazing.

Okay, I spoke too strongly. Awoken Pandora et al aren't TERRIBLE. They're a little AWKWARD to get the full power out of them and their real benefit is that they're not uselessly nerfed if you don't and they have good synergy. Sumire's in the same boat: The power isn't in how good the leader skill is, it's in the synergy of what you can combine with it.

Of course, flat bonus leaders benefit from having extremely stable and predictable gameplay.

There is a super big difference between having natural 100% +orbs and getting +orbs via active skills, especially with Athena's longer CD to compensate for the double OE (roughly 1 every 3.5 turns with max skill Athena leads). Plus there's also the teambuilding issue (Athena teams have 1/3 of the team dedicated to OE while Sumire teams don't need that) but that's a different beast

Hathor/reincarnated Verche/Rose/LG Sakuya subs brings you up to 11 OEs, sure, but Hathor and reincarnated Verche are pulling most of the weight. Take out Verche and then, from your list, you have Hathor/1 OE/Rose/LG Sakuya, which is 9 OEs. Take out Hathor instead of Verche and that's 8 OEs. Verche and Rose alone bring 5 OEs, but even though they're farmable and good Athena subs, that's really restricting who you can bring as Athena subs if you're aiming to get 9 OEs.

Sumire teams, meanwhile, get 4 by default from their leads. 1 OE per sub isn't that hard to do. If you're building a Sumire team then you probably have other blue subs that'll work well, and 2 blue OEs on monsters isn't uncommon. (On top of that, there's also natural 40% heart OEs from double Sumires, which not only provide enhanced healing but can also be heartbroken into enhanced blue orbs.) Awoken Isis, Hera-Is uvo, Skuld, Umiyama, Apex Starling, Ars Paulina, Christmas Ars Paulina (x5), Summer Awilda (x5), Summer Urd if you got her, Alrescha. Some of the mons with only 1 blue OE also have off-color OEs, which are super helpful too when puzzling (as someone who has played AYomi and Sumire). All of the options I listed are monsters I would actually use on a Sumire team, too, although I'd probably readily switch out Hera-Is uvo and regular Ars Paulina. There are also other options like Haku, who I would use on a Sumire team as a really nice stopgap ("really nice stopgap" in comparison to how newer players may use dublits as stopgaps)

For double light OE, cards I would actually use (Genie...) include Defoud, Verche (x3), Rose, Hathor (x4), Ars Nova (x4), Fat Chocobo if I want a board reset (looking at you, poison enemies :U), NY Sandalphon (x5), and Pollux. Not necessarily worse than what's there fore blue OEs, but it seems to be about the same, and Sumire teams naturally have 4 blue OEs from the leads to begin with.

Also Sumire still has the match-heart-cross thing in her leader skill and it's incredible now with 75% damage reduction for double Sumire leads. (It's great. And yes it's entirely doable to activate it when needed, as long as I don't get trolled super hard.) Both parts of her leader skill are guaranteed to be activatable (unless there are locked orbs but you don't see those until much later) upon using both Sumire skills, plus you get everyone else hasted 2 turns. If Sumire's damage mutliplier still doesn't look good after bumping up my conservative estimate of 1 blue OE per sub, then the tradeoff in her LS must be in her heart cross match.

A double Sumire team with only 1 blue OE per sub. There are a ton of options for what I can use for a double Sumire team if I'm okay with having only 1 blue OE per sub--and if I have two blue OEs on some subs, I wouldn't even be indecisive about putting a non-OE member into the team (e.g. Andromeda, even before super uvo) like you are with Wukong.

No doubt Athena's good, but... Sumire's rare??? Really????? Certainly not as popular as other leads (the awoken shivas are multiplying plz halp), but I got a few to randomly pop up on my friends list, and it wasn't that hard to find people using Sumire. She's only a 5* GFE and she is also a strong lead.

I think it's both. Teambuilding for Sumire is great, but her leader skill is great, too. I mean, you can have amazing subs but if you have a crappy LS then your subs mean nothing. Sumire's LS combines great damage (even if it's outshined; just because sth isn't the best doesn't mean it's crap, right) with what is effectively a powerful on-demand shield.

Similarly for Awoken Yomi. She can build a great team AND support that team with an awesome LS. Even a 5-match and only 5 other matches (not pro enough to hit 6 other matches orz) puts out great damage.

No one on my buddy list, no random allies I've seen, and no ranking results team has ever run Sumire. I've seen Tsubaki a few times, but I also consider Tsubaki substantially more powerful than Sumire as well as substantially safer. (I've not seen Kaede either but she doesn't have the 5-match LS so she doesn't really come into the discussion.)

I suspect there may be a clustering phenomenon going on in terms of buddy lists -- people generally will invite buddies that have leaders that work with their own teams, and Sumire is worthless for TPA and rows.

Anyway, as I said: Sumire isn't a bad monster. I never said she was. She's still solid. I just think the mechanic she's based on sucks, and there are plenty of better options out there, many of which are easier to get or more common to be able to pair with.

(Side note, it's fairly meaningless to compare star ratings, because they're not assigned particularly consistently, especially over time.)

Yeah, there's probably some clustering phenomenon going on haha I've never seen a Dark Izanami on my friends list even though I sometimes use her for mindless farming of Hyperion Lava Flow through Ocean of Heaven

Well darn, I misunderstood what you said earlier, then lol yeah, the mechanic alone sucks, but I think GH has been doing a good job of compensating for that via awakenings and LS power so that the match-5-with-enhanced leads are strong.

I mentioned Sumire's rarity in reference to REM rates and entirely independent of my mention of her strength as a leader.

(Also I love pairing Sumire with uvo Blonia--and no, it's not because of Blonia's OE lol I usually forget that it's there xD Sometimes I like it more than double Sumire leads, but that depends on my mood lol I like them both and they each have pros and cons and I can't figure out which one I like better based on that xD)

o3o questionz!

BOdin's thingy says this:
1.5HP & 2.5 ATK for Water Att. & God Type; ATK increases erasing 4+ linked water orbs.


So, that & in there for Water Att. & God Type.. does that mean Water OR God or is it better that my Water team be gods for my BOdin lead like i have it o3o

BOdin, Andromeda, U&Y, Muse, Okuni, BOdin
Okuni (Dark/Water) will be switched out with Orochi when/if I get him. o3o

I explained this via IM before I saw the post, but just to make sure it's here in the thread:

This means the bonus applies to Water monsters and to God monsters, but only once. I've never seen a single bonus that requires two conditions for a monster to trigger.

For comparison, Shiva Dragon's text says 2xATK to Fire; 2.5xATK 1.5xRCV to God. Since these are two separate bonuses, they apply separately, making it give 5xATK to Fire-element God-type monsters.

ono laaamez, but yes, i posted about the odin thing here for others to read. When I had that one Fire team with my starter dragon. Someone asked why I didn't have all Fire-Element Dragon-Type mons to get the full boost.. but then again, the water/god thing on Odins team works best cause of muse *u* so they has to be gods


So... When will the US get rid of the Cost restrictions on these dungeons =w= -stabs tengu dungeon-

If I get lucky on floor 1, they wont all attack at once. Unlucky They all attack me at the same time.. damn Ogre 3:<

If I get lucky and beat floor 1, i get a bad board on the Ninja floor.. for low level ninja they hit hard 3:< gyaa! fking ogre... I BLAME THE OGRE! D8<

Planning out my upcoming Fenrir team that I'm working on.

I have 4 Fenrir's but that's going to be irrelevant soon because Fenrir is becoming a rainbow leader....

x.x... I guess I should just skill up Z8 to max and call it a sub.

rainbow.. PAD HAS RAINBOWS NOW?! D:

Rainbow Teams are monsters that need all monster elements to activate leader skill.

So like Ra, Ra Dragon, Kalli's, and so on.

Fenrir has his original leader skill + Rainbow as a second leader skill as an addition to his original one. So he's like two leaders in one, but the rainbow is meant to benefit his other leader skill rather then just focus on one or the other.

Fenrir multiplier is now 400x which is insane, but to pull off an activation would be difficult.

ahhh an all Att. attack skill o3o

I noticed that Homura and Kamui don't have reincarnations. I wonder why not.

I just got "Angel of Secret Destiny, Ella"

o-o her cost is 99!

I got the thief guy from today's descend, he was easy enough for me to get. XD I'm tempted to do the mythic run since I only did the legend one.

get like 2 more of him o3o he's used as food for 1 or 2 things o3o noms on her goemon-

The Mythic one or the higher level one has angel invades! OuO its where i got mine!

Lucky you. I've got Grisar but I've been trying to get Elia for a long time. >_<

Ouo I didn't even realize it was one of those Angel invades until after i beat the dungeon xD

with all the TPA on my team, It took Odin skill to boost Water and dark orbs... then muse to boost gods.. then connected 4 water orbs and made as many chains as possible to break through her defense Dx

Being able to finally murder Tengu with the removal of cost restriction dungeon feels good.
His bullshit descend costed me a snow globe dragon, I burned him to the ground with Shiva Dragon like the filthy wood element he was.

xD I got the 2 i needed! I was even able to do the harder version of the dungeon OuO -feels so proud of herself-

Finally got a new phone!
MY Pad ID is 301,207,457

-adds to front page and friendlist- OuO nyahahahaha

OnO I had one pull yesterday and got Nut.. I wanted Orochi -flails-

I've been feeling prtty lucky. Only played 2 times so far on the pal egg machine and both were super rare =3
I got light sprite Sunrich and Cerberus guardian of hell.
My one rare egg I got free so far gave me a Ivory dragon starting at lvl 14.

They changed up the pal egg machine. Right now its the Rare Monster Carnival. Next should be the Evo carni. Which I wait for ono then after that its the Enhance Carnival.

then it repeats xD Rare Mon, Evo, Enhance.

TENGU DUNGEON DOESN'T HAVE COST LIMITS ANYMORE! -parties-

When I last played was at least a year or so ago it gave the crappiest things sometimes XD

I know right D8 I like the new Pal system ouo except they changed the price from 200 PP to 500PP xD

MEh as long as isn't real money it works XD

I know right ono I was sooo tempted yesterday to buy gems to try for Orochi but I prevailed! -puffs out chest-

I got Elia! :D

Sooooo painful to level. Late bloomer, high XP curve...and I'm running low on Tamadra. ;_;

With Grisar I at least had a snow globe dragon...

o3o grats! you need a snow glob dragon to level her i swear! xD

I'm out of tamas and I need some for the fire Norn.. Elie, and many many more Dx

._. -tries to tell mom about Enya and she just walks away- fine what ever 3:< -sings to herself-

Enya is basically Japanese country music. There's a large group of people who absolutely love it, and there are enough of them to make the songs top the charts, and then everyone else ignores it or absolutely hates it.

I'm a country-hater, and I'm not a big fan of enya. >.>

I'm talking about the singer Enya o3o not the music type

Only Time, If I could Be where you are... she did a song with Enigma um.. there was that song at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring (or was it two towers.. i'm sure it was the fellowship..)

Oh. XD Oops.

-Didn't know there was a japanese thing called Enya..- o3o I heard of Enka.. o3o

Enya did do a song or two in japanese or about japanese things i haven't heard them yet

One of Enya's songs was on NCIS and I was like "That sounds like Enya" and after the episode ended I was telling mom who Enya was and my favorite song by her (Only Time) and she walked away while I was talking xD

Yolo rolled 3 times last night

Dupe Satsuki
Berserker Z
And Ilm <3 with my 3 wukongs I can now put together a mech zeus team.

...

derp.

Yeah, you're right. I got my words crossed. >.>; Enka is what I was describing.

xD Thought so. You had me sooo confuuused!

Enka sounds weird. though I think Wagakki band mixes Enka with Pop/Rock Traditional with New.

I just pulled a flame chaser and a phantom chaser

those chasers get annoying o3o

do they? I was excited for a better flame monster XD

they're annoying to fight o3o

alien moo cow D8