Quote:
Originally Posted by littl3chocobo
(Post 1919197)
so... i don't ever see feminists of any ilk use toxic masculinity as short-hand for men=bad. i do however see a lot of people scapegoating all sorts of feminists in an effort to explain who is misusing the term and on occasion i see non-feminists using toxic masculinity as short-hand for men=bad (sometimes while pretend-playing as a feminist though not usually) or female-identifying persons in general making men=bad comments and being called feminist without meeting any of the criteria
feminists believe in equality between the sexes and while the minutia of what that exactly entails makes for different types of feminists(some of whom are rather toxic by virtue of endorsing aspects toxic masculinity/femininity) that core value is shared. men=bad is not even within the ballpark of what feminism has ever stood for in any iteration that has been documented and it's uncomfortable to see feminism thrown under the proverbial bus once again by some random person who does not understand feminism
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Unfortunately, this is a No True Scotsman argument.
I wish I could say you were right, that no one ever does that in seriousness, that it's all just hyperbole leveled by the opposition... but no. Misandrists are real. I've talked to people who would believe the world would be a better place if men were abolished. "Kill all men" is a phrase that has been uttered in earnest.
I agree with you on the definition of what feminism SHOULD be, but there is
definitely a group of radical people that believe that women are
better than men and that equality isn't a goal. You can say they're not really feminists, that they don't stand for feminist ideals, but
they call themselves feminists. (As an analogy, keep in mind that some people actually do self-identify as TERFs as well.) And it only takes a few of them to poison the well; when there are real examples of such behavior that misogynists can point to, it gives them the ammunition they need to start spreading anti-feminist messages and have it actually gain traction.
And buzzwords such as "toxic masculinity" only make it worse, because almost nobody knows how to properly tell someone what it means, which ends up with shouting matches where everyone's getting emotional and talking past each other because they aren't even talking about the same thing.
It's certainly frustrating, but it's a fact of reality that this is a thing that some people believe -- accurate or not -- at a fundamental, emotional level that bypasses rationality. It has to be taken into account if you want to have real discussion with such people, because it's legitimately triggering for them. (Now, if you DON'T actually care about reasoning with them, then I guess it doesn't matter, but at that point you're just hurting yourself by trying.) Getting upset because they're arguing based on a misunderstanding isn't going to do anything to resolve that misunderstanding. You have to take a step back and establish fundamentals and definitions so you're on the same page.
